Ardita Karaj' Agility Narrative about bamboo and the agile organization

Ardi learned Agile & fell in love with products working with small teams in a startup and a 3D product company. After this, she became an Agile coach, exploring agile in government, through consulting assignments and in large financial services.  She has impacted many in the Toronto area as a community leader, supporting and running meetups. 

For Ardi, Agile is like bamboo - a living organism, flexible and strong. It's sustainable and green. It grows and evolves.  In her agility narrative, the protagonist is the organization that needs to fully adopt  agile. She sees herself as an advisor helping this happen, understanding how hard structural change is, especially when it involves adapting governance. 

The theme of the narrative is continuous delivery with sustainability and a strong focus on customer.  She reminds us to know frameworks but apply as it makes sense. To learn from challengers.  And to take the opportunity with agile as survival, and/or growth could be at stake. 

For leaders and coaches, she calls for more courage to do what it is right and consider the human side to increase employee engagement.

Transcript

Martin: [00:00:00]
 Welcome to the Agility Narrative podcast series. Hi, Satish, and hi, Ardi . Welcome, Satish and I co-host. We hold this space. So as a community, we can listen to leading change makers and enterprise agile leaders talk about their agility narratives. Hi, Audie, we're pleased to welcome you to the agility narratives to talk about your personal journey as an advocate of change. The challenges you see and how you Look to help organizations address them in each narrative, we hypothesize that gives us insight into part of the whole ordeal.
 
We've met over three Years ago at Agile Ontario. You're a strong leader in the agile community and you lead my favorite meet up, which is agile. Ontario is a passionate, agile coach, trainer, change agent consultant in the Toronto area.

She brings  More than 20 years of software development experience from different commercial and public Organizations.

 She has Great passion for building awesome products, and that, combined with process improvement for organizations that are adopting Agile, she applies  Agile and lean techniques to identify and remove Barriers to help Streamline product delivery and release efforts. She's driven to creating sustainable change and has developed techniques that focus on building teams that have a culture of continuous improvement.

Welcome.

Ardi: [00:01:31] 
Thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

Satish: [00:01:35] 
Thank you for joining, and thank you for that intro, Martin. So let's kick this off. Let's start with some definitions. How do you define words agile and agility? And what do these words mean to you?

Ardi: [00:01:50]
 Well, the very first time I've had a challenge explaining what I do was when I was taking an Uber ride and I was traveling and the Uber driver said to me, So what do you do? And I wanted to explain to him, agile coach. And I said, Agile coach. He goes, Oh, so you do those pilates and those exercise? And I'm like, No, no, no, no. So very often the agile world comes with the agility of movements right in the human world. And as much as I like that, I think what hits for me closer is the connection with the nature. So agile for me Is an organism that Is strong and flexible. At the same time, it grows and it evolves. The best example that I can bring is a bamboo. Bamboo is sustainable. It grows is flexible and strong. At the same time is green. It brings

Ardi: [00:02:48] 
 That real Agility into how you look into growing an organization and growing a body. It can be a community, it can be an organization, it can be a family, it can be a person, it can be individual. So for me, agile and agility are around the combination of flexibility and sustainability as you grow.

Satish: [00:03:14] 
That's a very interesting way to look at and I love that analogy comparing that with the bamboo. And I think it's the first time at least I have heard the comparing agile with bamboo really a unique take on that continue? Yeah. So how did you first come across agile and what was the experience like?

Ardi: [00:03:39] 
So I was lucky enough to start working early in my career on my profession. I studied computer science and on the third year of university, I joined a startup organization. It was an American funded program that helped my country, Albania, to record and digitalized the property information.

And it was such An organic way that we worked there information. The way we communicated and we challenged each other. It was a small, of course, it was a small company.  It was a small Organization and And I learned so much from there that I loved it and I loved the way we work, and I took that with me everywhere I went.

And then long story Short, I ended up in Canada in 2000 and I started again. I was very lucky to start in an organization that was agile without making a big deal out of it. It was called Alias Wavefront. We did three software that was used for Hollywood, like all the Hollywood movies and special effects, were using our product, as well as an alias with another product that was used from all the automakers to design and or manufacture. Has to design their cars, and they're they're mechanical pieces, and that's where I fell in love With Product. We were very proud of what we did and that feeling of working for an organization. You know how your product will affect your Clients and how your  Clients is going to use your product to make to change someone's life, right? I know it is entertainment. I know it is beautiful cars. I know it is sometimes even boring machines that you build with that. But in some ways you are bringing a different experience to big group Of people. We had on the Hallways, on the walls, we had all the posters from all the movies where our software was used. We had the first initial designs of futuristic cars that our clients were designing. When Nike created the 3D printer, we had the very first Nike shoe printed in 3D and it was so cool because they used our product. So that's where I fell in love With product, and I could see how everybody knew their customer, how everybody was in touch with what the customers Needed.
 
[00:06:17]
And we all work together and we all challenged each Other into delivering With value in mind, always. So I brought My experience from that small Startup, and I just Make it bigger here with wavefront, and that was an experience That I will never forget. It is probably one of my favorite places I've worked on my entire career. And that's where agile made Sense for Me. That's where I did agile
 
Practices without even bothering. Oh, is the scrum? Are we doing it right or I was staying 15 minutes up? Or are we sitting down? Nobody bothered about that. We all looked into what things meant in 2001. I remember we started doing scrum practices and my manager saying, Listen, they're talking About this thing where they say that we need 15 minutes a day and I look at the work, Let's try it and we use index cards. Let's try it. And we tried, right? Nobody read the scrum guidance. Nobody went through a scrum training course to be a scrum master. Someone read it. Someone brought that concept. Hey, can we try? So how is this working? Do you find value on this? So this is  How we learned how to bring these practices, and this is how we made them work for us Without any Transformation or running like large Transformation programs Or anything like that was very organic.

Martin: [00:07:47] 
It sounds like a really great, informative experience, especially at the beginning of your career.

Ardi: [00:07:52]
 And yeah, It sounds

Martin: [00:07:54] 
Amazing. What do you think
 Drove the collaboration?

Ardi: [00:07:58] 
As I said, I think the the desire to make our customers Shine was something That was across the board. No matter what job you did, you were probably the one that was working on preparing the licenses and bring security in their products. Or you were the one that were Preparing For a conference, the marketing piece.

I had the chance to be A web developer. So did a lot of work on The website, and I could see how the changes that I made were visible on our main website. And then later on, I moved into the release management closer to the code, closer to the product itself. And then later I moved as a product manager for three products amazing products. We all were in love with our product. We all loved what we did. We all knew how our products were being used and what specific segments of our clients were looking for that. And that , I believe created that collaboration and made the collaboration easy is not just , Oh, you don't like my idea and be attached to an idea, it was, Oh yeah, that doesn't make sense. Probably for the customer. I can see how where you're coming from that. So it was always the customer in the center and we're all brought our experience from wherever we were coming from, no matter what hat we're wearing. We brought our experience, our point of view, and we had that open communication to with customer in mind.

Satish: [00:09:30] 
So now, midway through your time as a delays, you are a deep practitioner, a practice leader in the community, working with many organizations, etc.. So can you please tell us about what that role was and how did that help establish agile practices?

Ardi: [00:09:48] 
Yeah. So while this company was great at one point was acquired from a very large company and unfortunately, a lot of the things that. We did when did three steps back and we move to a heavy waterfall because the organization was large and that was the way for them to manage a lot of things. So in a certain way, it kills our spirit and I wasn't enjoying anymore what I was doing there. However, they noticed that isn't going to Be the way going forward. So then the larger organization decided to transform to agile, which was ironic for us. Like we were like we were agile. You moved us back. Now you want us to transform to what we were. So in a certain way, we were like, we wanted to do that because we wanted to go back to the way we were working. But we were also kind of confused. That's where I first met someone with a title agile coach. So they send someone that was an agile coach, and the agile coach started teaching us on things that were like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nobody was resisting, right? 
[00:11:00]  
So,  Later on, I Got to be more curious about this role. And how is this working? So after some deep thinking and some deep considerations, I decided to start changing my career and move toward helping Organizations to bring that Experience that I Had. I know what good looks like.
So let me help other organizations
[00:11:21]
 I left the Company and I have since then moved to many organizations with the purpose of getting experience for myself because I do want to speak with stories that I have gone through myself, but also trying to bring those lessons learned and help these organizations where They are 
[00:11:41]  
as a Community builder. I know that I can only touch as many people as I need with, which is not a good way to to scale and to bring community together. So I needed a way to create that amplifying effect. And I thought communities the best way to do that by bringing different people from different organizations in our city and our community together, and started discussing challenges with everything that I've gone through and bringing together even other people. There are a lot of agile masters in our community that I have learned a lot from, and by bringing them together was not just for the community, but sometimes was just for me. I just wanted to learn more from someone, and I brought that someone in my meetup and

  [00:12:34] 
Other events That I've been helping to Organize. And while my goal was to bring their Knowledge and their experience to everyone in the community, I personally was there to learn myself. So I find myself lucky to be surrounded by a lot of people. I've had the chance to meet and to learn from them. And I think that creates that amplifying effect where now everybody learns something, they go to their organizations that probably I have no chance to reach out to, but they can go to these organizations and they can spread this concept. This idea ideas can try things. And then all of a sudden we hear successful stories and we hear good ideas coming out. Oh, we tried this and this is how it worked or we tried this and just the challenges that we face. Then you can learn from seeing now community being built together from different point of views.

Satish: [00:13:31] 
Wow. Very inspiring journey from beginner in early days to helping communities and coaching them. That's very interesting. And any specific industries or markets that you work during these years and learn and applied research and practices study.

Ardi: [00:13:49]
 Yes. So I worked with startups, then I worked with government. I worked with a very large consultant company, and then I worked with some large financial institutions.
 [00:14:03]
 I was not Hands on with software development. I worked mostly on the business side, so I had some really interesting ways to practice agile thinking and agile ways of working. For example, in construction, one of the financial institutions is a bank. And so the physical branches and one of the projects that I worked with them was an improvement on their process to renovate branches. And it was an amazing experience for me to get to put in life all the agile thinking, lean Practices into Construction and an experience that will come with me everywhere I go now.
[00:14:48] Although agile, started with software and started with how to get teams to deliver software better has now expanded into so many other areas and. In so many other ways that it's not anymore, a process is not anymore a framework, you follow this.
 [00:15:08]
 It's about the thinking, it's About bringing together all the practices from all these areas and make them work in the context of some of the clients that we're working with. I fell in love with the product. I was working in a product company and I learned and I saw with my own eyes, and I felt how important was to be connected to the product.

 [00:15:30] 
And then I moved

Into organizations that Were project heavy and saw the Disconnection between working project based versus product Base.

[00:15:41] 

My desire of bringing what I have learned before and what I've seen to be good has followed me into changing these organizations to be more product focused and ask all those So what is your product? And this usually needs to come from the business or a product organization. You need to change from there because they are the first to start having the concept of Pure is our product, and we're not going to make changes project by project that that's wasteful. That's that has a lot of problems that everyone have been talking now for years.

[00:16:17] So to Start from there, from the purpose of let's make our product the core
And let's  Deliver value to our customers through the product into, well, let's now organize our teams in a structure that supports this product is not any more people that come do something and leave and then come back and do something else and they throw the code to someone else. So there is a team that has to maintain how all the problems that were thrown to them while the initial developers are moved to something else and nobody is learning on how to deliver high quality work because it's someone else's problem now.
 [00:16:55] 
I find The product thinking and organizing by product key element of an organization That wants to Be agile and wants to compete in the market with agility.

Martin: [00:17:11]
 All right, thank you. Let's start on on the agility narrative come up to talking about today and the work that you do around product labels often aren't very helpful, but please indulge me just a little bit. How do you see your role? Do you see it more as a change maker or an implementer of agile?

Ardi: [00:17:30] 
I have thought about this, and I see myself now more as an advisor. Change is constant. Change is always going to happen. How we manage change, that there is that element of change management that has to be always there. And often organizations don't have it strong or don't have it implicit. To say we are in a big transformation, I believe limits the vision Of what organizations Should have right now. I see myself as an advisor to help organizations from where they are to the next step and then create with them a vision on what should be after how to look at their transformations Or that their changes That they are Bringing in a more Visionary strategic way. While I learned a lot on the product Side, as I said, product StartsmWith business.

  [00:18:21]
 You need a strong business strategy and we need a strong business thinking to start looking at the customers and the products that we offer in the services that we offer and how we offer these products and services to our clients in a more strategic way and in a more fluid and continuous way is not. Project by project is a continuous way of testing something that we think is going to bring the value. So to your idea initially for even for this podcast, right, you are running a hypothesis. We need to run hypothesis from the beginning with business and to think everything is on hypothesis until it proves it, until it's validated or invalidated.
 [00:19:04] 
And then we learn from that  And we move forward. Currently, what my focus has been is to work with organizations that, first of all, have a clear purpose, start with an understanding of what their purpose is and what their even short term goals would be. You probably heard a lot about OK, right? Objectives and key results. So those are some things that I've seen work.The change that Occurs bring is that moves the organizations From a laundry List of Kpis Into narrowing down to a handful of metrics that really matter. 

[00:19:49] 
And that creates Focus the intention that the teams need from  Business. So helping organizations start with purpose, start with intention and focus, and then from there, let's see what is preventing them. To deliver on these, but also we need a delivery. Delivery for me is continuous delivery in the sense that we continuously deliver value to our customers and we always learn from the way that our customers use our changes, use our products, use our services. So combining the delivery piece.

[00:20:22
] Are we able to run small experiments or these ideas that we have have to wait for six months before they go into Production to changing That way of working? It's very important. That means a lot of the technical expertise people that know how to do things like DevOps and continuous pipeline Releases to Move the code faster. To do that, continuous testing without phases like testing is not a phase. This thing is a continuous thing and be able to move code to production many times a day to run many experiments a day to learn many things a day and then make a decision to move forward with the right thing. So it is now the narrative is an organization is no more, just one team or just one piece of it. If you look at it is the whole organization that needs to collaborate and that needs to work together, and that needs to intentionally organize and structure
 [00:21:26] 
 Their selves if  We're structuring teams to support this continuous delivery for a purpose. We also need to change funding models because a lot of organizations have these yearly funding models based on projects. But we're saying, well, we're not going to have projects, we're going to have hypothesis. That is a big change in the way that the organizations look now into how to use their money for

  [00:21:48] 
The year, how to bring also other Areas of the organization legal Marketing.

Martin: [00:21:55] 
So ardi, thank you for that holistic view of from intent all the way through to continuous learning all the way through to impacting the structure of the organization to align to support that that new model. I'm going to Ask you a few rapid fire type Questions, And we can go through That And break that down in this  Narrative.
 Who's the protagonist?
 Who's that central character Could be a Relationship could be A theory. What would you Call out as the protagonist here?

Ardi: [00:22:26]
 I would put the whole organization right. I would put that bamboo stick that that is growing and that is still flexible and robust. At the same time is the whole organization. Changing pieces gives you some quick wins, but until the whole organization is together in this change or in this new ways of working,You will see local Optimizations.

Martin: [00:22:50] 
The protagonist is the bamboo. I got it. That's the organizer.

Ardi: [00:22:54] They are going to.

Martin: [00:22:55] 
I think you've just done a great job of Describing what happens When things Work well. You've stated that What are the underlying constraints to move to that model and how are the different stakeholder groups verbalizing that today?

Ardi: [00:23:11]
 There are several underlying constraints.
 First of all, The structur And the governance

I'm going to call governance everything that is related with funding to managing to All the way to delivering. So the structure and the governance Are still not Easy for organizations to change. It is very hard to change an existing structure or an existing governance. I am a student of exponential organization.
 [00:23:44]
 What it is The concept that if you put technology behind a product or service, you are going to see an improvement by 10 times, not 10 percent, not one percent, but 10 times. And this has proven right even on times when humanity has gone through wars or reallyTough times, so has Nothing to do with where humanity is, has To do with how we evolve Our products and our things. So based on that, how can we create now these organizations that are 10 times improved and then delivered at that 10 time value to customers? And one thing that they do is, they say it is very hard to change the narrative of an existing system. And a lot of our effort in the agile community goes into dealing with resistance. What we call resistance, right is resistance to change. Structure is resistant to change processes, resistance to change leadership's Mind on how to Fund and how to how to hire or how to even how to be a Leader.

 [00:24:53]
 What they do is or what they offer is to create in the edge of an existing organization. A new organization with a new structure and a new way of working without the limitations of the big organization and gifted this small organization the support that they need, call them like a disrupt or. It can be an external disrupt or that is going to disrupt and take your business from you. So why wait for someone to disrupt you, create a disruption yourself? And what they're saying is create in the edge of your organization, a small organization with a modern structure with a focus on the customer, with the proper strategy for your product, and then let this organization grow. Disrupted our organization to a point Where this new Organization becomes the larger organization, and the larger organization now has to be involved into this new organization. I find that fascinating because I think that is a big problem that we face right now with agile trying to break structures and governance
[00:25:59]
 Models and Sometimes agile community looks naive when We go. We need to collaborate. We need to bring customer in the middle.

Martin: [00:26:07] 
Thank you for that. I was just going to say it sounds like incremental change isn't working.

Ardi: [00:26:12] 
It's it's not. It is slow. It works, but no. And for the speed of the change that we are seeing in the world, it is not matching the speed that we need to see in our organizations.

Satish: [00:26:28] 
So what are the unspoken needs and feelings for the team's leaders and coaches that you have seen? Is there any elephant in the room that may be discussed in private, but not openly? I think courage. We need more courage.

  [00:26:46]
I mean, we are Old people, right? We all have bills to pay. We all have families around us. We all have personal needs and wants. And usually organizations don't allow us or don't allow the people that I've worked with to actually follow these these needs and wants. I have worked with AV apps that have small children, and they can go to their child's ballet show because they had meetings with a senior VP. So that hurts. I think that the human side of the business is still it's still hard in most of the organizations they are not bringing. They are not considering the human side on these fires that they bring. Like just recently, I work at an organization where every week there was a fire and the fire was just urgent request from a senior leader that sent to their teams that wasn't properly thought or wasn't properly planned or wasn't properly sequenced. And all of a sudden, for the senior leader to do good, they send it urgent request. And now everybody has to work over time or change

 [00:28:03]
 Their plans or rearrange their Schedules and calendars to make this urgent request happen. You cannot get people to work firefighting All the time. So we Need courage. We need courage for people to actually say that this is not working. We need courage from leaders to Actually do what is Right. As I said, they know what is right. They know. But is the politics that prevents them to do that? And it's that not burning bridges or, oh, I don't want to be the one to say that. I think that is that is the unheard. The underlying challenges that are going through when we don't talk enough or because it is, we just put them under the word politics, right? Oh, it's politics. And everybody says, Well, you have to be political savvy, yes, but not to the point that it ruins your image for the customers. It ruins your employee engagement and it ruins them. That strategy, that vision where you want to get to.

Satish: [00:29:11]
 That's interesting. What's your philosophy when it comes to evolving organizations sending digital frameworks to have agility?

Ardi: [00:29:22] I find frameworks to be limited. However, there is a lot of good things that come from frameworks, but If you tell someone you just follow the framework and everything will be fine, that is a lie that we tell to our client. And what we need to teach people is that you need to know these frameworks and apply them as needed. Apply them with your knowledge and if needed, bring you and practices from other frameworks is not just about doing the framework well, it's about achieving our results and our purpose.

[00:29:56]
 While there are many Frameworks, I think the. On sets are not far from lean and from the initial scrum, like if you just take the initial core of scrum like the the new new process, right where scrum Started front and we combine It with lean and we bring even that strong technical backbone into delivery part. I don't think we need to create more frameworks. I just think we need to be mindful and knowledgeable on how we practice them and how we educate our people. When I said initially that I'm an advisor,

 [00:30:31]  
I see myself as an Advisor is I bring the knowledge, I bring the concepts, I bring the idea and and it is in the hands of the Client.

 [00:30:39]
 How much desire on the client side to actually put these ideas in practice, to actually have the courage to do the right thing? That is all in the hands of the client. And this is where now leadership becomes that differentiator of a success in a market. I've worked in Many of the financial institutions in Toronto. They all have access to the same frameworks, to the same ideas, to the same people, to the same meetups, to the same conferences. They all have access to the same information and the same people and the same talent. The difference is the leadership mindset and the leadership style.

  [00:31:26] 
Some sees themselves More as growing and as part of creating a sustainable environment, while in some other Organizations they don't have the Visionary and that way of thinking on growing people and growing structures.

Martin: [00:31:42] 
Can I ask you what your theme would be for your agility narrative and why you just quickly? Why would you pick that theme?

Ardi: [00:31:51] 
Yeah, it's continuous delivery in a sustainable way. Never forget that you exist because you are. You are offering a product or a service that makes someone's life easier. Make someone get a certain task done, and you need to do that in a sustainable way without hurting your people, but also being able to scale and grow when needed so continuously like a bamboo. Yeah, has been. Bamboo has been the theme all along.

Martin: [00:32:28] 
I think the theme is going back to bamboo and continuous delivery, obviously. So what are the villains in your in your narrative?

Ardi: [00:32:38] 
Yeah, I actually want to switch that conversation.
I prefer the Other way of looking at it. That is a creator of challenger and a coach. Mathematically, there is only three percent of people in the world that wake up in the morning and think, What am I going to do today to mess up someone's day? Nine to seven percent of people wake up and say, what is something good I can do today? let's look at villains As the challengers, as the people that probably have a lot of ways to help us grow and to look at our products and services with a more skeptic point of view that probably we're not going to like initially, but is going to help us down the road to understand even different point of views that we haven't considered.

Martin: [00:33:30] 
So meant to be a Personal attack on anyone as a villain. It's more meant to be the constraints in the process, and I think you've identified that sort.

Satish: [00:33:41] 
Yeah. So it's interesting that you say ninety seven percent of the people are good and they think of doing good things that really makes me feel peaceful. I'm so comforted by hearing that. So we talked about the protagonist, which is organization.

Satish: [00:33:59] 
We talked about What's working, what's the challenge. You talked about the theme of the narrative, which you say is the continuous delivery of value. And we debated on the villain whether we should call some something or somebody as a villain Coming To the stakes. So what is at stake here for your clients?

Ardi: [00:34:21] 
In some cases is surviving. In some cases, is growth depends where they are in their journey. I've worked with organizations that have been around for a hundred and fifty years and they want to be around another hundred and fifty years. So for them is more growth and for them is more adapting to

 [00:34:46] 

New Modern ways that that we have not just new modern technologies that are coming by the second, but even new modern ways of working with people for a small organization. For them, the purpose is to grow and how to grow in a way that is sustainable, in a way that they make a dent in the market and they become the challenger, they become the disruptor and they bring that new way. We want work to be done or things to be done. We have had for many years banks working in the same way we have had for many years, education being in the same way, governments running in the same way. Is that the right way that we want no more right

  [00:35:35]
 People Needs have changed. People perspectives have changed. We want a lot of change in these old style or type of organizations, so I don't want my child to grow up in the same way I did in school. School have changed and they have different needs right now. I don't want my child to wake up at night to do a production release. Why should they ruin their sleep? Because the organization is not able to get together good practices in place. So with these needs that are coming toward us, I think a need for disruption is imminent. We need it.

[00:36:18] 
We knew better
Platform, more modern platform that gives them more flexibility. And in a certain Way, people are tired From these old organizations. They're ready to move to Better platforms that give them more flexibility And less Bureaucracy and faster Service.
So where are we with this? My clients that I have worked with, some of them are fully aware of this. But again, is these structures and governance that are preventing them to move fast to these changes? And the other ones that are small and Growing, they are full Of ideas, but they don't have the right funding. So it's that interesting balance between having deep pockets but being constrained by old ways of working and not having a lot of funding, but having a lot of ideas.

[00:37:12] 
If we can Find deep pockets To, to support and to allow to grow the new ideas, I think we will see better organizations coming up. Either the larger organizations are going to be forced to change and change for good, or they are going to be disrupted or removed from the market and create a place for these new ideas and new organizations to come up. It's a dilemma.

Martin: [00:37:38] 
Thank you. Thank you for sharing your perspective on that. So to close up this conversation, you're talking to a group of stakeholders that say in one of these older organizations wanting to move their organization forward. And honestly, as as you described, they feel stuck. You understand, and you empathize With this state. What's your call to action?

Ardi: [00:38:01] 
Take the courage. B Be courageous courage to do the right thing. Courage to say how? What is preventing us. Courage to make The problems visible and Not to see the problems that when you make problems visible, don't make it look like it's finger pointing. It's an area to show that this is where we need to focus our attention and our intention And our metrics make That your current OK are in order to bring that improvement that we want to see in a larger scale. So courage, I really think that is something we lack. That is something we don't do

 [00:38:40]
 Enough in these large rooms. And although I empathize and I know that they go back home and they speak with their spouse or with their friends or with their coaches, and they say, Oh, there is so much going on and there are so many meetings and we're all dancing around a topic. It is hard to have the courage to say and state and ask everybody to do the same for the higher purpose.

Martin: [00:39:09] 
Thank you. Thank you very much for this conversation. You've taken us on a whirlwind tour of bringing agility to organizations. So really appreciate. You sharing your Insights and knowledge and being our guest. Thank you.

Ardi: [00:39:26]
 Has been has been a lot of fun. Thank you guys for inviting  Me and thank you for getting me through all these questions and sharing all these things with you. I hope they all make sense at the end.

Satish: [00:39:38] 
Absolutely. Pleasure talking to you. Very, very candid views and excellent points that you covered. Thank you.