martin: [00:00:00]
Welcome to the Agility Narratives podcast series. So Tash and I are co-hosts, we hold the space for the community. So as a community, we can listen to leading change makers and enterprise agile leaders talk about their agility narratives. Hi, Mike.
mike: [00:00:16]
Hi, Martin. Hi, Satish. Thanks for having me here.
martin: [00:00:19]
We're very pleased To welcome you to the Agility Narratives. For the last 20 years, you've coached leaders to deliver top Results and have coached Teams to improve effectiveness. A former tech leader yourself, you focus on creating human orientated cultures and work to align teams and pace, direction and time. You have a very diverse set of qualifications as a coach guy to lead and help. Most recently, you qualified as a median.
martin: [00:01:02]
So Mike, when you think About how you first got into it, can you tell us that?
mike: [00:01:07]
I got my first degree in computer science as a software developer right out of university did that whole thing for the first half of my career Matriculated up senior Software engineer, team lead, etc. eventually became manager, QA manager. And it was in that role as a key way manager that I first was introduced to Agile. There is an opportunity. I went to my senior director and I said, Hey, there's this crazy, agile thing out there. Can we try it? And he said, Sure, go nuts. So I brought in the training. I was the scrum master for three teams, but I was also the manager for the people that were on those teams, which is that juju, which we all know now, but I didn't know then. So I made all my typical first mistakes in that environment. And from there, as I say, the agile bug bit me like I just started deep diving into everything and all things agile. And from there I was introduced to the idea of an agile coach and I said, What the heck is that? So I started looking into what it meant to be an agile coach that I could become one. And as I did that, I learned that there is this whole industry of professional coaches and I'm like, What the heck is that? So then I started looking into that a little bit more. That's kind of where I am now. It's kind of been in the past 10 ish years of my career.
satish: [00:02:34]
I think it's really interesting to see that you went to your manager and you propose to adopt agile. And he readily agreed and you got into a completely new world from a world. And as I can see, you have a diverse set of qualifications and now you are also qualified as a mediator. So tell us a bit more about the transition from your early days of agile To the leadership Roles that you were playing in your career.
mike: [00:03:03]
Now, as I got more and more into agile, of course, like a lot of people in the beginning, I thought it was just a cool way to write software, just a cool way to deliver software. And then I started getting into the human oriented side of it, right where they were talking about cross-functional teams, or they're talking about self-managing teams, self-organizing teams and what is needed in order to support that. What's needed is high level Baen manager Level by in a move away from the traditional command and control into more servant leadership. And I'm like, I didn't quite understand it at first. So I really dug into that. And the more I dug into it, the more I was like, Yeah, this is what I've been wanting out of my career for, like, so long. I've known from very beginning that I don't like micromanages, really like the managers that we're like here, Mike, here's a piece of work. Just go do it and I go off and do it And I come back. So from there, I started to say, OK, so what can I do in my role as an agile coach in order to help support this new, wacky idea of employee engagement, team empowerment? And I encountered resistance, and I'm like, Wait a minute, why are you resisting me? This is a good thing, is it not? And I started to bump up against the traditional Culture of Corporations, corporate culture. And it's from there that through some of my own experiences, as well as working with other leaders that I identified who are the leaders that really embodied the ideals and the principles and the values that were important to me and who are the leaders that were not and who didn't. And from There, obviously, It became obvious after a while it wasn't obvious. At first, the mindset of the leader had a significant impact on the culture of the organization. And that's how I kind of got into leadership and leadership coaching because I wanted to find leaders who wanted to make that impact and maybe just didn't know how and if there were any of the leaders Who didn't know They wanted to make that impact. But I could work with them To try and help Them adopt a different mindset. And through all of this, you can. Imagine there is just a whole ton of conflict, and so it became almost a necessity for me to understand and get better at navigating conflict, both internal conflict in a leader and conflict within a team and conflict between teams and leaders. Holy cow. How much have we Seen that before? Teams say we want to do this, but our boss won't let us. So from there, I got into conflict management and a conflict resolution, which just seemed like a natural transition over to becoming a mediator. It was actually a friend of mine when I was trying to explain executive and agile coaching. And she's like coaching. So what? You have like a whistle and you wear sweatpants and I'm like, No, no, no, no, no, that's it's a different kind of coaching. So when I explained what I did to Her, she put it Back to me and said, Have you considered becoming a mediator? Because that's what it sounds like you do. And I was like, Oh, I never thought of that. So I started looking into mediation and the fundamentals of mediation around conflict resolution. And then there's something called transformative Mediation, which is Really about. Re-establishing the Fundamental humanity and the human connection between the two parties that are currently in the conflict and that really Spoke to me. So just like everything else, I just kind of deep dived into mediation. And now here we are. I have. I'm a qualified mediator on top of everything else.
martin: [00:06:43]
It's a very interesting journey. Might die too many times andYou've brought these Things and integrated them together. Let's talk about your agility narrative. Can you talk a little bit about how you've integrated all of these different learnings that you've had over the last years And what thatn Means in your day to day actions with people?
mike: [00:07:05]
That's a good question. So just as a quick background, I have my coaching certification in ORSC, which is organizational relationship and systems coaching. So it's you coach Systems as you read. And I also went and got NLP, which is neuro linguistic programming, and now I have the mediation and transformative mediation training as well. And I was surprised and impressed at the overlap between all these seemingly disparate pieces and how much commonality they actually all had. So when it comes to working with a leader, I start off sitting as a coach. Ok, what's your agenda? How can I help you reach your agenda? Be a neutral third party, blah blah blah. And depending upon what I get back from that leader, I might actually pull in a bit of NLP in order to help Them reframe a particular thing that they're thinking. I might pull in a little bit from ask to help them to see the bigger system that they're playing in. I might actually pull in a little bit of the mediation in terms of more in the form of like conflict coaching to say, OK, you're about to have a potentially difficult conversation with a direct report or potentially challenging conversation with a peer. Maybe you and a
mike: [00:08:29]
Peer are fighting over the same resources within the company, so I will then coach him on how he can approach that conflict from a more resourceful standpoint. So it's really amazing because when I'm working with a leader or a team, because there's so much overlap, I feel like I can just pull out the right tool at the right time, depending upon the specific need of that individual or that team in the moment, given what's being presented in that moment.
martin: [00:09:05]
It does. That's really interesting the way you say you've taken this particular journey And seen the patterns Within it. I think from my own reflection, I started with thinking mediation like the Conflict resolution process was sort of the key thing that needed to change in how people relate it together. And I then started to see that, OK, it was motivational language that was then there was leadership training that was this method and that method. And I think we're all trying to get at the same thing. And there's just so many different ways of getting at That meaningful Conversation that you end up having with a leader, with a team member or a, you know, a peer.
mike: [00:09:46]
Absolutely.
satish: [00:09:47]
So, Mike, you knew the change in narrative. Would you term as a protagonist?
mike: [00:09:54]
Yeah, I really had to think about that, so I think the protagonist is as a person is leaders. So my my protagonists are leaders who want to make a difference, want to make an impact, but they don't know how. So that's as a person, that's a protagonist.
martin: [00:10:15] What would you say is Your theme of your agility and why would you pick that thing?
mike: [00:10:20]
I really. Strive like my work, my my personal way, like my reason for being here is to help make connection meaningful Again. So in my agility narrative as a concept is connection. I would hope that my coaching strengthens and establishes really good and healthy connections from from leaders to everybody. I don't want to be so bold as to say it will, but Yeah, it's the Connection that the leader has to him or herself. It's a connection that the leader has to their direct reports and to their peers. It's the connection that that leader has to the wider ecosystem as well. It's all of that.
mike: [00:11:09]
Your comment on ecosystems is really interesting, and maybe you could explore that a little bit more.
mike: [00:11:16]
Here's the thing we're all human beings and human beings are social animals, so we are hardwired to be in connection with each other. That's a line from Brené Brown. You do get the occasional hermit who likes to live in a cave by the sea, but they're definitely the exception rather than the norm. If we are Hardwired to connection then and because we are social animals, we live in a society. How does one connect with themselves? I see connection in three components for lack of a better term. First is connection to self. I think it was, Mark Anthony said. Know thyself. I'm probably wrong on that. That's OK. So what is your connection to yourself? How well are you aware of your own emotional state? How much are you aware of your own thinking, the type of thinking that you're doing? How well are you aware of whatever biases you might have and are you looking to overcome them in any sort of way? So that's connection to self. And then there's connection to others could be any others in a leader. Like I said, that's the direct report. That's a peer. That's maybe your manager. That's other stakeholders within the organization. As a human, that's your connection to your family, potentially your spouse or any of your friends. What does that interrelationship connection look like and how is that showing up for you? And how is it? How is that serving you? How is that maybe not serving in? And then the third level is your connection to the wider ecosystem and society as a whole because we live in a society. We drive cars and we all follow the same rules of the road because otherwise it would just be mass chaos even. And I've been there even in Bangalore, India, where a North American might look at the roads and say, Oh my God, like, they don't know anything like, how could they possibly drive? But guess what they do? They figure it out. They navigate it. There are rules that you just kind of learn along the way by growing up and living there and driving there. So you're living in a society, You're living Within a wider ecosystem that you have to navigate and establish. What are your connections to the different parts of that wider society and that wider ecosystem? And how are those connections serving you and how are they maybe not. The protagonist has a as a person is, is the leader who wants change.And the Underlying theme is when when I coached, that leader is connection,And I'm Constantly looking for the threads of connection in everything that I do. And also at the same point In time as a coach,I have to be careful not to bring my own agenda. So I bring my awesome friends would recognize this the meta skill or, to your point, a theme or the mindset of connection. And at the same time, if my Particular client has a different agenda, I follow my client's agenda and I Work with them on whatever it is that they Want to work on and see If Where connection fits into their agenda.
satish: [00:14:38]
So in the change narrative, who or what are the villains or rather the antagonists? And are they always constrained to me?
mike: [00:14:49]
The the villain antagonist is is another concept, which is which is fear. So fear is the thing that breaks connection because fear leads to lack of trust. Lack of trust leads to damaged or broken connections. So a leader doesn't, at the fundamental layer, doesn't trust that his peer is going to be able to deliver something that he needs. A leader is fearful that they won't make their pal in a particular quarter. So in mediation, in a conflict conflict by the very nature definition means that two people disagree over particular matter. And if you kind of Like, dig at that, the underlying issue of the disagreement is lack of trust or a fear that the other person's position is incorrect Or won't Satisfy a particular issue that party one says, I want to do this party to says, No, you should do that because party too thinks that the this isn't going to be good in some sort Of way. So there's a lack of trust. There's fear of the of the proposition that party once said, let's do this. So underlying all of This and definitely As a counter agent to there's another term if you don't want to use. Villain or antagonist, let's use counterinsurgent the counterinsurgent to connection is fear. So that's what I'm Thinking about when I'm coaching somebody or when I'm mediating or protect a potential conflict. Because if I can help to address the underlying fear in some sort of way, give them tools to help cope with it better help them reframe the issue in a different way, help them think about or challenge their thinking differently to overcome a particular bias. That fear starts to erode. That fear starts to diminish, which in turn, just like a seesaw, allows the possibility for that connection to be increased.
satish: [00:17:02]
So the fear is it because people are not expressive, is it because people do not kind of talk to each other? Or is it because inherently there is a lack of trust? What would you attribute the fear to?
mike: [00:17:20]
Oh my goodness, so much. We are conditioned from Birth to be fearful Of so many things. I mean, just just think about when you were a Kid, your parents said, Don't touch that hot stove. You'll get injured. You'll get burned. And so you learn to fear the stove until you got to be older and you could manage it and you realize it's not so bad. So that's just one small example. We are conditioned from a very young age around the concept of fear. Some people are able to overcome it in certain contexts. Some people Aren't. So your question is to teach is spot on what promotes fear like people not having conversation? Yeah. Like how many times have been talking to a friend, a colleague, a relative, a family member about potential issue that they might be having? Maybe they're complaining or just venting to you? One particular day? No big deal. And in that venting, they say stuff like, I can't do this because they will say that or I'm, you know, I'm afraid they're going to they're going to do this instead. It's all these assumptions, like just the next time you're listening. This is I'm going to challenge like all the listeners to this. The next time you're listening to anybody could be a coworker, could be a family member, could be a friend. I don't care who it is. Just stop and listen. Really, really, really, truly listen to what they're saying. Listen to their words. Listen to the undertones behind their words. You'd be surprised at just how many assumptions people make on a daily basis. Sometimes those assumptions are valid. But most of the time, if somebody's Venting or has a problem Or an issue, those assumptions might not be valid. And so that's one of the things that I try and help people do is to challenge their assumptions and see In an agile Context. What's one small experiment you can do in order to validate or challenge that assumption to determine if you're right or not? When I'm doing one on one coaching, I usually ask something similar. It's like, what's one question? You can ask that person that would help to validate or maybe challenge that assumption?
martin: [00:19:39]
I like to push back On on some of that because there are times when parties have competing Interests.
martin: [00:19:46]
What would you want your leader to be able to do when there was a competing interest and there was trust and there was maybe concern that their interests weren't going to be met? But in general, it wasn't the sort of the negative backdrop that was a Relationship that what would you Like to see?
mike: [00:20:06]
Let me just clarify that then. So we're making an assumption or making an assumption that there's no negative fear underneath it. So there's no lack of trust. But a leader one has a particular interest that they would like to achieve and lead or to has another interest. And maybe those interests themselves are competing against each other. Yes. Ok, great. Then what you're looking for there is what are your common interests? What do they both have in common? Because it's so easy for people to see and lock on and amplify the differences and to negate the commonalities or to diminish or to forget the commonalities. So the first thing that I would do is I would look for where are they aligned? What interests do they have in common in an organizational context? The most simplistic one is, hey, you both work for the same company. You both Want to see the company Succeed. How do we help the company succeed? You have one position. You have another fine. Let's collaborate around that. But let's let's not lose sight of the fact that you both want the same thing. You both want the company to succeed.
martin: [00:21:27]
Let's had some Bonuses to It. One solution Gets one leader with a high Bonus and the other leader with a Lower bonus. And then let's sort of revisit that again.
mike: [00:21:38]
Yeah, that's that's a challenge. I would love to work with both leaders collectively in and do more of systemic coaching scenario there, rather than doing an individual coaching one on one with them. Because as the saying goes, two heads are better than one, and there's a great example in mediation training. Talking about the Orange. So these two kids both want the orange, but there's only one left and so they're fighting over who gets the orange.The parent comes In and finally asks, Well, child one, why do you want the orange or I want to squeeze it to make orange juice child two. Why do you want the orange? Why I need the rind, because I'm Trying to make some cookies Or something like that. It's like, Oh, guess what? You can both have your interests met with that same single orange, because what you actually want are different things out of the orange. So now apply that analogy to organizational context. Sure, somebody's bonus might very well be impacted negatively by allowing his peer to to get their way, so to speak, write, quote unquote get their way. But most often when the two leaders are talking to each other and they're talking about their different suggestions. Option A and Option B, the concept of bonuses never gets stated. So later one keeps fighting for his option because in the back of his mind, he's thinking, Oh no, like, I don't want to lose my bonus, but he never actually tells the other leader, Hey, I really want my option because I don't want my bonus to be effective.They never say that. But if we Actually get them together with the, you know, neutral third party like like myself,Either as a systems team Coach or as a mediator, you'd be surprised what starts to come out and then you get other options on the table. And if the leader too actually hears, Oh,Like, my proposal Is going to negatively impact your bonus. Sorry, dude, it didn't occur to me that that was actually a problem, because guess what, the second leader? She also has a bonus. She understands The concept ofBonus.She's playing in the same Game so We can look for a third or fourth or fifth Option that might Have different. Results, so I'm going to give A small example, maybe leader one allows leader two's position to be had, but there's a longer term play at place, so his immediate bonus for this year is is negatively affected, but they set up a construct in the organization that actually has long term effect, long term positive effect for leader one. And so he's willing to take the short term hit for the long term gain. But we would never get there if we don't have the two people together talking and exploring all these options together and seeing what the actual underlying interests are.
martin: [00:24:43]
Thank you for that. It was really, really comprehensive. Can you define the stakes? What is at stake here, if the clients or for the industry, if these type of conversations don't happen and these connections don't happen?
mike: [00:24:58]
So what's at stake is an organizational context, a happy, engaged, productive people in the organization at all levels, at the lowest individual contributor to the front line manager, to the director, to the VP, to the executive VP. If we don't make connection meaningful within an organizational context, what's at stake is burnout. What's at stake is a disengaged workforce. What's at stake is what just happened last year, the great resignation, people leaving companies in droves because they recognize that they can get better environment somewhere else. So and that goes for the leader Themselves as well, like the leader Wants. As I said, the leader wants to make a difference. And part of that making the difference is making the difference in the lives of the people underneath them, making a difference within the organization and the organizational culture, and then making a difference in the world through the actions of the company that They're in and without Focusing on connection. All of that is at stake.
martin: [00:26:11]
It's a pivotal topic.
mike: [00:26:13]
Yeah, that's why I like it.
satish: [00:26:15]
I think you Answered my next question in some ways already, but let me ask you to summarize, so define the call to action. How would you address The villain That we talked about?
mike: [00:26:29]
At the risk of seeming way over self-serving here on this podcast,My call to Action is to get a neutral third party. The idea of executives having personal executive coaches has been around for decades. The concept of coaching is beginning to be democratized a little bit more with some coaching platforms, and they're they're stretching, coaching out to all levels within the organization. So in that first sense of connection, the know thyself. Find a coach or A therapist or just A really, really good, trusted friend that can hold space for you. But whatever it is, like whomever you get, find someone that you can sort and process your thoughts out with From there within an Organization or just in relation with anybody, contact a mediator or a team coach somebody again who can kind of act as that neutral third party to help manage those difficult conversations to help resolve the conflict that might be there. What's interesting is that there's a lot of training available for frontline managers on difficult conversations and crucial conversations. Those are two very common things, but it's training. It's Hey, come and take this course and learn a few things and then go off and do it on your own. And it's basically trial by fire. I've had in my time as a manager, I can't tell you how many times I've had bad conversations. Despite reading the books, despite taking the trainings right because I'm just not experienced in it, so acknowledge that sometimes you might need outside help in order to navigate very challenging ground the very rocky ground of conflict.
satish: [00:28:20]
That's interesting. Thank you.
martin: [00:28:24]
Given your perspective as a leadership coach and a mediator, how do you see the threats and opportunities that we're facing around the future, the next five, five to 10 years?
mike: [00:28:37]
That's a that's a really good question. The opportunities are actually quite surprising. I think there's a really great opportunity over the next five, five to 10 years because there does seem to be this, at least in corporate America and in North America and maybe Western Europe. There seems to be this awakening towards engaged workforce, towards people oriented cultures, towards purpose driven organizations. There's a long way to go. But you hear about it a lot. You see people talking about it a lot. So I feel like there's a lot of opportunity ahead for those leaders who are hearing these things and are curious about it and are interested To begin to explore that.
mike: [00:29:32]
The threats are manifold. The threats are money. As you tried to point out, Martin, right? Not that money is bad, but it comes a threat to the opportunity to explore human connection if people try to put money over connection. That's where it becomes a threat. The other threat is, of course, fear. Again, I'll just come back to to the villain that that tends to drive us towards. Maybe. Not the action that we would like to take or that we think we should take, but that we take because we're driven out of fear. And so that takes us away from the opportunity to to really establish and strengthen connection.
martin: [00:30:18]
Thank you very much, Mike, for all of your insights. When you first became a qualified mediator, I was so excited to have some other analysts who is also a mediator, and those are really, really great and had great conversations about it since. And I love the way you sort of integrated all into into these messages that you shared with us and your thoughts and insights. So really, really interesting and hopefully valuable for the audience. So thank you.
mike: [00:30:48]
I hope so. I hope so. I remember when you reached out to me and I'm just like, What? And I was I was thinking the same thing. I was like, What? Another Agila Susan mediator what? And of course, you and I have had quite a few conversations around that topic. So it's been it's been really good to kind of geek out with you around that. And thank you very much for inviting me onto this. I appreciate the opportunity, and I hope that some of what I said is is useful to your to your audience.
satish: [00:31:16]
My thank you for being on the podcast. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Excellent articulation of very fresh perspectives. Thank you.
mike: [00:31:27]
Thanks so much. Satish.