Kai Mosebach's Agility Narrative on vertical development

Kai Mosebach of Integral Works' personal journey starts with shadow work. He introduces:

• 03:44 the modules of Integral life practice: Shadow (unconscious), Mind (cognitive & trust), Body (emotions, life happens in your body), Spirit (mediation, observing your own system, states)
• 06:42 Integral theory - Ken Wilber initial story - All quadrants All lines (AQAL) of development

08:48 The Journey from shadow work to integral theory helped develop practices that changed his world view. He gained empathy to understand different types of people. 11:00 The Enneagram helped with a vertical shift in understanding. 12:32 Showing up. A good willed but probably a somewhat painful missionary. 14:17 understanding vertical versus horizontal development. 

15:38 Kai started to lead - own shadow groups and experiments in leadership. 19:11 reflecting on his first experience of scrum/agile in terms of integral colors and structures. 23:35 vertical or mindset shifts can't be taught, you have to experience it. 26:46 What is the right methodology for the team? Get dragged v hold spacing. 

31:06 Bring people into understanding - working with the heart, body and spirit. 35:21 Breakthrough moments - trust & opening and the team wanting it. 37:55 Who is the protagonist? Person who sees the pain and realizes the opportunity of development and is prepared to take that step - "It hurts more but it bothers you less" (Wilber)

39:51 The world is not the best world we can have. 41:49 You realize your theme over time - purpose - integral assessments and making development visible. 45:49 Measuring vertical development is an important step in building more effective happy teams. 46:58 Villains identified include i) Integral scene is cognitive and theoretical - it is meant to be lived ii) limited focus on shadow practice iii) perceptive on what is better...

49:17 Change and immunity - Robert Keagan - shadow work for business

50:46 Teal - bringing wholeness - structure and unconscious. 51:42 Is the framework holding space for itself or for the people? Gives ideas and structure Yet people are outside. 53:07 - Deliberately development organization DBO focuses on i) creating space, ii) shadow work and iii) it is centered on people

54:48 What is at stake here for your clients and for the industry to not take action? 56:21 Cultures and mindsets get built and our role in that. 59:13 What would be your call to action to a leadership team that feels stuck? 1:02:23 Integration of the five elements and Kai’s hope for the future, an unfolding universal v fights of conscious levels. Kai hopes that we realize the next steps. 1:04:23 The reality is each person, team, organizations and the world has to go through all development stages. All stages are good. 1:05:42 Three things to consider about vertical development. 1) explore it and out of this take action ii) Shadow - taking care of these is important (understand projection); iii) express emotion - such as understanding anger as a need for better system

1:08:22 Reflection on vertical development, what it means for agile implementation and this podcast. 1:11:22 - Substance & form - to see what has not been seen - placing people at the centre of development

1:12:08 Authenticity, a key message. 1:12:55 Structure has limited space for people. 1:15:00 Agility master (coach) & scrum master roles. 1:16:10 Wrap up & thanks

Kai - https://www.integralworks.ch/en/About-us.html
https://www.integralworks.ch/en/The-Modulator.html (view of methods across integral colours)
Theory of Everything Integral Business Spirituality - Ken Wilber
Immunity for change - Robert Kegan

Want to learn more about the co-hosts - Martin's LinkedIn Profile and Janet's LinkedIn profile

Transcript

janet: [00:00:04.01] 
Welcome to the Agility Narrative Podcast series. We hold the space, so as a community we can listen to leading change makers and enterprise agile leaders talk about their agility narratives. With each narrative we hypothesize gives us insight into part of the whole. Kai is the co founder of Integral Works based in Switzerland and is an integral coach and trainer. He has spent many decades in the computer software industry and for the past decade into applying integral theory to the sector. We are really pleased to welcome Kai to the agility narrative to talk about his personal journey supported by Integral Theory, which, according to what we'll hear today, is key in optimising teams and their personal emotional interactions. And to know more about Kai, Martin and myself. Please see the show notes. Hi Kai, Welcome to the podcast.

kai: [00:01:04.92]
 Hello.

janet: [00:01:07.23] It's wonderful to have you here today. So I am intrigued. Where in your personal journey did your interest in Integral Theory begin, and how did that grow into a passion for personal development?

kai: [00:01:23.92]
 So basically, I think as it is with everybody, it was a very personal thing in the beginning. I was I don't remember exactly. I have to calculate maybe 30 and the end of the twenties, my life kind of emotionally depleted, but I did not feel so much anymore. And I mean, I had relationships, but they did not really bother me somehow and so on. And I was like, it felt like, okay, something is wrong. And then I got to know to this girl and she was a psychologist, and at this time I was always like, Oh, psychology. They know everybody and they know how to handle my stuff. So Guy became a teacher for me for a long time and he's very profound in that was new to me by then the approach. But before we came to this, we first started with what they call shadow work for me. I googled this term by then and it goes back to Freudian theory that we have unconscious part in ourselves and so called shadow parts, and you can work with them and then they become clear to you, and then they are no more shadows, then they are no more unconscious. And so this intrigued me a lot because I was always interested in all these kind of self watching things. And so I went to the shadow group and in the beginning it was all for let's say we were like sitting there and it was like very stuffed and so on, but fairly quickly and I sat there, you have to imagine you sit in circles with like eight, nine people and, and like a bit like a self-help group.But the idea is led by someone who has a clearer view than the others. And and it's just about you don't know the other people, but it's like having no rules, having no concepts, and just be there, tell the story and then from your life. And then the people will just bring in what they think about it. And then fairly quickly, off you go. Because the idea of such a group is to show the shadow which you have. Like if you tell a story and with someone else in the group, it makes like a question mark. And you are brave enough to speak up like, Hey, that's strange to me. Can you explain? So you quickly easily go into the unconscious parts of these stories and they very often end up big. Part of the problems you have in your world are created by yourself, which first sounds like quiet and no. But in the second part it gives you a lot of power over situation and I don't want to go too much in shadow work itself. It's just very important because it's one of big modules of the integral theory. There's like four modules which the integral theory has. One is the shadow. It's a very strong one and I think it's also the least applied one from the integral theory. That's a bit of pity. And the second one is mind, which says you have to understand things before you can apply them. It's like if you understand that the bridge is holding, you will trust to step on it, right? Or if you understand, if I just see it with my little boy at the moment, you understand I can jump into water. It does not hurt. Then you jump your trust. So cognitive insight brings you very often trust. The third module is body. It means that all our emotions need a body to express themselves in. So everything which makes you actually alive is happening in your body. It's not happening in your mind. Your mind is then just trying to make sense of it often. But you need a body to feel pain. You need the body to feel love, you need the body to be. And we also used to work a lot with the body because there's a theory, we called it body work that you can also get access to your emotions by certain exercises. I just don't have the name of philosopher in psychology anymore who invented in the fifties. He invented a lot of exercises, which brings you just by doing the exercise, which brings you in certain emotional states like pain, like fear or anger mainly.And this helps you a lot to get access somehow to these things. So these four modules to wrap it up are the core idea or the core elements of integral of an integral life practice. It is not yet so much with the integral theory, but not the fourth one I missed is actually spirituality. I'm sorry though our teacher always used to say, hey, spirituality you need. Then when all the other mechanisms do not work anymore, spirituality basically starts with meditation. I would say it starts with observing yourself, observing your own mind, working your own system, working, and then goes higher. Also observing spiritual states you get into, which then interact with the mind module because for certain people can look like panic attack, but it can also in the same moment be a spiritual experience. And if you have from the mind, sight and idea about it, it's not so scary anymore. Except. So the Spirit module is also important. I don't want to put it too much aside, but it comes later. Usually because the first part, I think in the integral life practice is what we call the cleaning up. Or I think Wilbur, which is the inventor of the integral theory called cleaning up, which means like cleaning up all your emotional stuff before you really can do something in the world because it will always hinder you.

janet: [00:06:49.99]
 It began with shadow work. And you've been describing the four key elements of this theory called integral theory. So can you go into integral theory a little bit? What is it about the founder that has driven an international following of this way in approach of human development?

kai: [00:07:10.78] 
So the founder, if you want, so is the American philosopher. It's Ken Wilber. And he started to read a lot of books very early in his life. And a lot of books he's I would say, what would you call nowadays? Blinkist was Wilbur of the seventies. I think he digested books like on On the Go, and he took books from everywhere. I think he did not have any censorship there. He took on the Eastern and Asian cultures. He took our Western cultures and tried to make sense somehow and bring this all together. And ultimately, I think the result is the integral theory because it brings together Eastern and Western cultures. It brings together the spirituality, it brings together science. He managed to bring this all into one framework, which is called the actual framework stands for all quadrants and all lines. But I think for a podcast, this model is a bit too complex to explain, especially I think it makes sense to see it. So I think for for today it would make sense if we just look at certain elements from the model, right? If you follow a podcast, if there is interest onto the full theory. But I guess for now, looking at the lines would be, I think a good start and a line actually maybe coming quickly back to Wilbur. He did not do so much in the core work because he brought together all the work of other people like developmental theory, the spirituality from the from the Eastern cultures and so on. He brought this all together, so it doesn't mean that he all invented this, but he made this big step of bringing it together.

janet: [00:08:55.30] 
So what is it about integral theory that has really sparked your curiosity and interest?

kai: [00:09:01.66] 
For me. As I said, it started with this shadow work because I really needed it. I was suffering and like only after two or three years of shadow work, we could really go into theory. And I think our teacher did this very well. We had this here and now approach, which means like, okay, if there is stuff in the room, we don't do anything theoretical because it will be sabotaged anyway within the next 20 minutes. So this is why it took us two or three years of deep, deep shadow work. And then then we started to go more and more into this theoretical model automatically. For me, it changed my worldview. Part of the extended archival model there is also typologies. If you understand, Hey, there is different types of people in the world. We still use it heavily. The Enneagram as I think a very profound typology, which also includes development. That's important. And if you understand, hey, there is people who see the world differently than me just because they are other personalities. But also and this is then what the actual model brings you because they are on other developmental level than you. This changes your world completely. And this is, I think, what really, really intrigued me a lot. This is then what we would call vertical development. It changes you. You cannot go back to the state before anymore. You see the world through a more differentiated classes and you see more. And this, as I say, it changes you. It gives you all the more tools by hand, because you can easily see, hey, look, this person is now acting because out of this, because the personality is maybe like this and because developmental level is more or less there and before, it would have maybe made you angry because this person is acting this or that. But now, because of this new view, you understand it. And you it even happens to me sometimes that someone who is behaving like a prick, it raises passion in me. Because of of this new world view, there's more different view on how the world is.

janet: [00:11:07.40] 
You mention it raises compassion in you. So I'm curious what such a situation have always raised compassion or did something shift in you to be able to get there?

kai: [00:11:19.94]
 I don't know if my wife should hear that, but without the Enneagram, I think I would have not married her. Because when we got to known to each other her the way she behaved, she's quite a perfectionist, I would say. And for me, this was hardly understandable. And it's like, why does this stuff make you angry? Why do you? And so on. And for me, it was like, I mean, I'm more or less the opposite of a perfectionist. And so then I came across this book and it shifted. It is an integral theory. We would call it a vertical shift. And it helped me to understand, look, when my wife, when she leaves the house or she comes in a new setting, she immediately sees what is wrong. She immediately sees, hey, there is a little bit missing or not in the right position or whatever. And the initial emotion which is raised in her is anger because it's like it's not. And just to understand that it made me sad. It made me it gave me a lot of compassion for her situation to realizing how life is for her. Because for me, this is not I mean, it's not a reality, but I could anticipate it by seeing the world through her lenses. I think the shift is a vertical shift, as we would call it.
 

Martin: [00:12:39.41] 
That. You started with the shadow work. You then got into more theory and building it out in your life and it obviously had a huge impact. What happened next? What's the next part of the story?

kai: [00:12:53.44] 
I think it happens to every human being that in the beginning you learn things and some things you learn are, as you say, intriguing you and you go deeper into it and they fascinate you and so on. And I think a normal, healthy behavior is that at some point you want to give this somehow back to the world, you know? I mean, if you realize it as this, the world gives you a present and you want to bring it forward, you want to give it to other people. And this can be and it was for me, at least in the beginning, you're a bit like a missionary, and I think you're pretty much a pain in the ass of others who are just not interested in it. But there is a good will into these things. It's just I guess you need to see if it's the right approach A and B also if it's the right situation and if the person actually wants it. I think this was missing for me, at least in the beginning. But still, I mean, this drive is there, hey, important things for the world. I want to bring it forward. Right? So you do something which Wilbur, in the integral theory would call, show up, step on stage, and you show up and you present this thing you love so much from your perspective. And this, I would say, happened a bit. First of all, in the shadow groups, we started not to consume anymore, but also to create our own shadow groups.

kai: [00:14:17.71]
 Also bringing not only the shadow part, but also this theory of Wilbur to the people. What I would like to emphasize today, what we call vertical development. I think besides understanding that there is developmental lines in the person, it's also important to understand that the whole development which happens is what we call vertical. And to make an example what is vertical and what is horizontal is if we develop as children and also as grown up people, this is called vertical. I mean, when we are 18, we are not done developing. We go on, we, we extend our worldview, we learn. And that's maybe the thing. We don't learn new things. That's not the issue. But we shift, as I described before, our views, we can integrate more world views. We can take in more complex views and more differentiated views of the world. And the more this is increasing, it's called vertical development. And horizontal development, as a counterexample is if I make a pottery workshop or I start to learn drawing or I get just more tools in my toolbox to express myself in the world, this is a horizontal development that's not completely true. I think art changes a lot the way you see the world, which then would be again, vertical development, but like just the simple fact of being able to draw or just do whatever workshop to, to learn a new tool like even management tools. This is just horizontal development.

Martin: [00:15:46.60]
 Could you tell us a little bit more about what actions you took? How did you show up in your journey?

kai: [00:15:52.48] 
So in order to show up, the first thing, as I mentioned, was to create your own shadow groups, which is like jumping in cold water. Suddenly you are in front of the people. Suddenly you are the leading person in line of fire. We realized soon that the impact I mean, there is a lot of impact. You go very deep with shadow work and the things I experienced were pretty crazy sometimes, but the impact is always it does not scale, if you would say in it, because you have to imagine the shadow group usually runs for one year. You meet once, once a week or so. You go maybe for retreat two or three times per year. And within this group you have like eight, nine people and their life change is usually a lot. The impact is is very, I would say, local, and there's nothing wrong with that. But we realized that the real impact happens in business and I am running a IT company in Germany and I also like started to see like how things there could be better, what things were not good and so on and so on. So I tried also in the beginning, maybe with the wrong approaches, maybe a bit to missionary to bring in new stuff could nowadays it works much better.

kai: [00:17:03.40]
 I could bring in these little bits which which made the system change. I started to realize with my employees, Look, this person is there. It's then again what Janet said in the beginning, when you see the person is when you can understand that, I think then you can only give the right room for the next steps. If I realize, hey, this person is ready to work his or her own, then my job as a boss, I think, is to create this room to give her a project where she can develop. If I don't see this, I will just leave her at the position she is, and then she will maybe come at a certain point and ask for another position. And maybe this is too much. Which also happened to me like one of my employees, we expected a lot of independent work and he wasn't often coming back like, how should we do it? And so on. But. I even got slightly angry hearing that because I expected him just to fill the void to make it on his own right, which can be very good, can bring a lot of creative room. But in his case, I think it was a bit too much.

kai: [00:18:06.66]
 And then ultimately he left the company, which is a pity because he did really good work. But I think the room was too loose, it was too big. He could not fill it completely or he didn't want to. I mean, it's not only like what you can what you want. So this was in the German company. It happened like this. This is a typical example, I think, where you then if you apply it and you can see where your people are, the more exact you can work with them, develop them. And I think this is also one big problem which happens nowadays that we don't see this. We we don't have an understanding of this vertical development. And because of this, we don't measure it or take care of it too much. I mean, it's not completely true because there are assessments and we also build one too, to figure out where a person is. But it's not taken into account enough, especially if you change companies in the big style, like if you implement Agile or Teil or Holocracy, all these very new and very good methodology methodologies. But if the team or the people are not ready, it's you just yeah, you just screw it up. It's foreseeable.

janet: [00:19:18.78]
 In the example you've just shared with us, you talked about two forms of development. You talked about the horizontal development and the vertical development. I just want to bring you back to the words that you mentioned. And we use this a lot, right? Management tools, the tools. So we're all on the horizontal level, we're gaining more tools. And the other is, do we have expectations of people to grow if we give them independence and are they ready for that? And so that's the vertical line. And how much do we see but how much does the person see? So can you talk a little bit about this in the AI two world, especially with regards to methodologies you just mentioned and how what have you seen in how these methodologies are implemented?

kai: [00:20:05.66]
 I love to bring examples from myself because I lift them, right? So one was 15 years and I was at the Zurich. It's a big high school. It's like very wealthy, big governmental high school in Switzerland, although I think very famous worldwide. And I was working there and my my boss, he started to implement what they called Agile at this time in my was 15 years ago. And Agile is I think only one part of the whole thing. And what he implemented as a structure is Scrum. So we had these Scrum meetings and maybe to to bring in a bit more integral as it is in integral. We talk in college, the vertical development which I describe before, define stages with colours. I think it's a good choice because does not give you the feeling of better and less good. So at this time being I was 26, 27, I was just finished my my high school. I was what I would call typically orange person, right? I wanted success. I got finally a lot of money from my job. I wanted to explore the world with my money, not with my my senses so much. That changed three years later when I got to India. But so what happened is he came with this super cool new tool, which is what we placed in the green conscious level. But I was one level below on the orange conscious level from my internal view. So he applied this whole thing on me and it did not fit this it from the outside speaking now in colours and structures and so on. But in fact what happened is we had all kinds of meetings, we had review meetings. I think we did it every two weeks, but we had daily stand ups.

kai: [00:21:59.33] And since I did not understand and it's really like my mindset could not understand Agile, what is the point of it? So we had to stand ups every morning for like 3 minutes, everybody. And. I was late, so I would call it from now. Nowadays perspective, I would call it unconscious resistance, but it was regularly late. So what did he do? Actually, it's a very what I would call emir measure. He put up a little box and everybody not like it was not towards me, like it was to what everybody who is late has to pay one franc. All right. So, yeah, Janet is shaking her head because she sees it would not work. I mean, you have to imagine in Switzerland you earn quite good money. So on top one franc was a bit too little to work. Anyway, at the end of the year, I think in this in this box, there were like around about 120 francs. And I think most of it was from me. But I mean, I laugh about it nowadays, but this is actually the sad reality. I was not ready from a mindset perspective to go into this agile mindset and the structure which he took and applied to me. Scrum is the expression of this, this mindset, and it only works. This is the other thing. It only works if the mindset is agile. If the people are not there, then you apply a scrum structure. And I think this you can also see often in businesses nowadays and it's like kind of the people use it because they are told to and here like me being late is I would say a typical resistance to this not understanding of the mindset. And I think this happens still a not.

Martin: [00:23:44.18] In terms of your story you told about being late all the time. What would have helped you make a vertical shift to a state where you would have gone from maybe orange to green and accept the reality that was trying to be created at your work?

kai: [00:24:04.55] That is a very good question, because what we can say regarding especially the horizontal and vertical development is horizontal development. You can easily buy, you can send all your workforce into workshops and so on and so on. Then they learn something. And if they are attending, they usually learned it. Vertical development is much more difficult. You cannot buy it. You have to. You can support it. You can give room, but you can not really predict a if the person is taking the room or even if you apply it to a full team. If the team takes the room, if it becomes an independent working team, for instance, you can just try it. And I think what you can say is upfront, you can kind of. Measure of all the people, more or less, are they ready for it? And if so, then it's a good it's a good chance that they will fill the room. But you cannot really force it. I mean, taking the example from me, being late, it needed a bit more than just the working place. And I think it would have been not like easily being able to raise this new what we would call a green mindset in me because this just happened over the next two or three years because I started to travel a lot.

kai: [00:25:21.15] I went to India, I saw a different world. I saw a world full of pain which touched me, something which back home in Switzerland I did not knew. Right. And this changed my whole life. Again, this is typical a shift as well, a vertical shift. But this this happens. This is difficult, I think, to really create it. What you can create, though, is the mind part. You can bring people into understanding it. But then, I mean, that's also the thing with the integral theory. You can understand it, but this is only a very little part because it needs to shift your mind really. You need to start to live it. And for me, I can clearly say at this point the Zurich I was not yet there was forced a bit to live it and since I was the only one maybe who was resisting, it was okay and it can then even drag you at some point. But for me it really needed this. Going out into the world is learning other cultures, learning other perspectives by force actually. Because I mean, you can imagine India is is tough as wealthy European. I mean it's not tough for us.

kai: [00:26:33.93] But to see it and to anticipate it, if you really let it into your heart, it's pretty tough. And this changed me and I think at the moment back in the attach it, there was not so much which could have been done for me. Thirdly, but I think what you can do is to see, hey, what is what is the right methodology for this team? And if there is most of the people are ready for it, then go for it. Even if there is one person. I mean, in the in the best case, this one person is direct. I see this also in my company nowadays because in the end the new mindset is ruling right and you get a bit overruled, but you get also the chance somehow to experience it by that you yourself would never try it out. And this is happened in our company that it is fairly even with the developmental level. But one person I would say was a bit behind and he got now pretty much tracked into the drive of the others and now he could experience it. And I think this experience then again brings you into your new reality. So this can work if the majority is there.

Martin: [00:27:44.39] You talked about holding space. Yes. What is that about? And then you also talked about a sort of a ruling mindset that drags people along based on the overall development level of the team. So how do you correlate those two?

kai: [00:28:02.06] I think holding space is a quality you get somehow. And I told you in the beginning I was quite missionary. And this is the opposite of holding space, I would say. And over the time, I realized I cannot change the things I want. Like a missionary runs to Africa and realize, okay, they don't take it. So and in the first case, you just become more intense. And ultimately, I don't know. You burn out or what? Or you become humble. And you become humble. I think there is a chance that you realize, okay, I can do what I want, but it does not happen. So I can maybe just do try to do the right thing as much as I can. And if the other person doesn't take it, then I cannot do so much more or even further. Going and this is my mode nowadays. If I don't see a need from the other person, I can drop things here and there. But if the person is not picking it up, I already know I cannot do so much. So. And this is also holding space. It's like pouring a bit into the pot and see what happens, but not trying to manipulate it more than what comes by itself. This is one part, but to make the link to the other part is difficult because the drag what I describe before as drag is coming by the majority somehow. I mean in nowadays you have I would like to make an example from from society in Europe. It it becomes more and more common that smoking is not okay. And in the eighties, in the seventies, it was okay you could smoke in offices.

kai: [00:29:43.93] Even when I started my first internships and people were still smoking in offices and this was common, it was okay. But then the mindset about this shifted a lot over the last 30, 40 years, and now it's you are hardly allowed to smoke, at least in Europe or I mean, on the street you are allowed to smoke. But in the train station you have special little spots where you're allowed. I mean, you also know it from the airports. I guess you have these little awful booths where you go in and you come back like a barbecue chicken. And this is what what I would call the track of consciousness, because the consciousness grows and the majority then decides, okay, this is normal, okay? And this then pulls the people more and more out of the of the old habits and forces them with new habits. And the same, I would say, happens now with all the ecology shift towards green energy. It is ruled somehow also I mean, it's a common subset of consciousness we have nowadays in the Western cultures and hopefully, but at least in Europe, it is, it is also pushed through and not all conscious levels are happy with that. You have to see that. I mean, yeah, I don't want the new car, I don't want to drive electrical and so on and so on. It was like a lot of discussions and ultimately in ten years you will not be able to buy a non electric car in Europe anymore. And this is the drag.

Martin: [00:31:13.24] Yeah.

janet: [00:31:14.23] You talk about bringing people into understanding and your narrative. Today brought forward a number of different examples, including of consciousness, in bringing people into understanding. I could say there's an assumption that we're talking about the mind. Integral Theory holds four elements talked about the shadow earlier the mind in terms of bringing people into understanding. My inquiry is are there other ways to bring people into understanding and does working with the body and does working with spirituality also bring into understanding?

kai: [00:31:51.74] I have to be honest that within my work life and also my coaching life, I did not really consciously at least work with spirituality yet. But what I can say is now coaching. We extremely often work with the heart because I think one of my jobs usually in the coaching is to bring the people into contact with what they want. And in the first step, you can imagine to realize what you want is painful. Because if you realize what you want and you realize there's a gap to what you have, it creates basically pain, right? So I would say there is still a bit of cognitive work into this. You have to explain to people a bit of like auto projection and if they can take it back, then they can see, then only it opens rooms. But after this, I think the real impact in the coaching part at least happens through the whole. For me as an integral coach, you have to be part of the situation. So but in the best case also for mainly for the opposite and I can hold this open and hold this heart room, so to speak. And I think this experience is have more impact in the end in the 1 to 1 coaching.

janet: [00:33:12.22] Then bodywork.

kai: [00:33:14.62] Some of my coatings I did together with a good fellow of mine. He is, I would say, in our company, the body coach. So somehow it's funny because I always end up with coaches which are having issues about what they really want. So it's usually always this is the universe. I agree that maybe me question and it's good because this is my quality somehow. But one of my coaches he would what we would call from the ground perspective of body type and body types usually tend to work out of their guts. So it's usually the the main energy is anger. And behind the anger, I mean, it's important to understand these these energies because behind anger is always the need and the anger just protects the need. And with this one coach, he was always he was quite a grumpy guy usually. And with him we had some quite intense body sessions. I also had to attend to these body sessions. You can imagine you do exercises like you take a five kilo iron ball and you just hold it in front of you like straight on. And then you hold it and hold it and hold it. And you can imagine after half a minute, a minute or so, it makes you just so angry, if you like, and then you can work with the other.

kai: [00:34:29.14] You look into the eye of the other. It starts like a little bit of, I would say a bit a masculine battle, like who can hold it longer? And but it raises the energy so much until you break down. And after the breakdown comes the release because this is a typical example of the body work. How you fast is energy until it is fruit and then comes a breakdown and people start to cry. Or in the best case, because there's the expression emotionally but even just to to get in touch with. Okay. This is what I really like. After this comes a release and like a connection to to what is really what the way they want to be because they just see this grumpy crust always like hindering them to be a bit more free and to be a bit more like light. And this, I would say, is a typical example with him. We did a lot of body work exercises and it was also cool, I have to say, it's just not so much mine.

janet: [00:35:30.02] So I'm curious in the world with working with teams and organizations, we talk about team activities, bringing teams together. Do you see out there consideration or options for team activities to build their agility in this way, to kind of have those moments for emotion and breaking through so that they can move to the next level, whatever that is? It is a.

kai: [00:35:57.53] Good question, and I was already about to talk about it before when I said 1 to 1 coaching, because it is naturally easy in a 1 to 1 coaching to build a psychological trust which leads then after two or three sessions to do an opening. But this is the base. If there is not this psychological trust, this opening will not take place. And it is clear the more people you bring into the group and the beginning of the group of two, the more difficult this will become. I would say in the best case, the people know each other. I mean, what with my company in Germany. And then you also know a bit already, like the pros and the cons of the people, like he's snappy and so on. And but we can talk about this once and once. It is a topic, it's clear. So, I mean, weakness is maybe a bad word, but like if you're conscious about your weakness, accept it, then it's already much more of a real team. But for this you need, first of all, and that's, I think, the big problem you need to the whole team to want that.

kai: [00:37:05.27] And I can say my German company is a bit like a family, so we are clearly a green company. We rented a big house, so we live there also a bit like a shared flat with all the problems. But there's already much more trust. You can easily say, Hey, this sucks, which you can maybe not even say in normal business context. But to come back to your question, I think this is like really the will to work together like this, like it's not even about the content of the work then anymore, but like the how which way do we want to work? What is how should that look like? How should that feel like? Because it's a constantly like a chewy situation I'm in because we are discussing and discussing. Then there is a chance because this is actually pain. This is pretty annoying very often. And if the people want to get out of this but also are ready to show themselves. Then there is a chance and not before.

Martin: [00:38:03.06] This is great, great conversation. I hate to break it up with.

kai: [00:38:07.02] Some of the agenda items that we have.

Martin: [00:38:09.48] Let's go there and see. So in your change narrative, who is the protagonist, the main character or characteristic? Who's the feature of the narrative and hopefully the one that wins out in the end?

kai: [00:38:23.11] First of all, it's a it's a young guy who was suffering with his own life. Right. Who kind of realized, though, that the suffering is not because of the outside, but because of the inner opponent. And he started to take care of this and then brought this into the world because he got a bit of a freedom because of this. He realized, hey, most probably happening to more or less everybody. I mean, there is clearly different people and other people have easier contact with their emotions and can deal easier with it. But basically behind all this, there is a structure and the structure he realized, is called development. And it's really like I mean, there is he realized as well. There is tons of studies about it, like there is enough science is there for it, but it's just not applied. It's just not right. He realizes more and more he in every situation he goes into, he realizes it's the structure isn't working there. Just the people don't really care. They don't care maybe because they're too convenient or because it's also scary to change. This is, I think the protagonists struggle somehow. And there was one sentence which was formed by Wilbur, and he said, It hurts more, but it bothers you less. And this is where the protagonist actually is. Somehow, like he sees the world and he sees and the pain he sees. And also the pain is in him because the world is just not the best world at the moment. We can have is increasing. And somehow this raises a lot of pain in him and wherever he goes. He also sees that other people are also suffering somehow because he understands some things of the development, it bothers him less.

kai: [00:40:17.88] This is true, but still he is in pain. Because wherever he goes, he sees burning Kabul everywhere. And this is just not okay. Not for this planet. Then we are fighting in the east of Europe. For what? And from a conscious level, it's just it's crazy. You just see especially just war at the moment. Good example. It's two conscious levels fighting. And if you would understand that, maybe it would not be needed. Or maybe it would be needed. That's then again, the universal view. Or this it bothers you less because maybe it is needed. We saw a similar situation ten years ago in North Africa. It was the Arab Spring. It was a lot of revolution going on. The people exactly did that. There was like enough people had consciousness raised enough that people stood up and usually it is students. It's a very good sign. We also had this in Europe. I mean, sorry, if you go back in history, you see it everywhere happening. There is conscious levels fighting. We had it in France in the 17th, 18th century. We had it ten years or 15 years ago in North Africa. And some of these states went into the next level. They went out of ember or even red stages in kind of a democracy, you can call it like this. I mean, it's clearly not as great as we would like it to be, like looking from the Western world, but we have to have them do it themselves. We cannot go there and force them to have it. It would be like applying Agile. I mean, 15 years ago it would not work and it does not work.

janet: [00:41:56.80] So in our conversation today brought us through your personal journey, your professional journey. A lot of great examples and how integral theory came into your life and how you use it as practice. And you also really focus just on worldview. What would you say you're seeing? Your narrative is today and why.

kai: [00:42:21.16] If we talk about that theme, it's not something you choose. It's just something you realize over time, somehow having these two companies and in the Swiss company Integral Works, I think live more this purpose part like this why I am here on this planet and I mean we started a lot of different things. We do the coaching, we do workshops and so on, but especially through Corona, we went down a bit with it because I personally, I love to work in person and not on screen because I work very much with a subtle field. It is somehow transmittable through video, but it's completely different story. So in this time we started to create our own vertical. I would not, if I would call it really integral assessment, that's a big difference than a vertical assessment is just checking is your world view and your cognition more or less in the development, but an integral assessment? Goes deeper. It takes much more lines of development. Like all the measures, your values, it measures your morality in the best case, measures your needs very strong, because need will always drive and interfere with you. And it can even measure the Enneagram type or some typology because it also like it's your characteristic and it's something you are born with and you kind of, if you're not conscious about it, you will run around with it for your whole life. And so we started to develop this. And within this, I mean, it took a lot of different phases.

kai: [00:43:58.03] Like we have one tool which is called Higher Fit, where we just apply the whole thing to the hiring process to match a team with the actual person and just say, hey, from an integral or vertical perspective, those two fit. We don't look at the CV nothing. We just check, Hey, it is an authentic person and all the values and the culture this person brings fitting with the team. So these are the typical outcomes of this kind of assessment. And within this I realized my purpose is ultimately really like making this development visible because I'm convinced if you see something, it becomes more reality. And I mean, I have this example from magnetism. Magnetism was not known before. You really could show that it exists with like little metal pieces or a compass. If someone would tell you, Hey, there is an invisible force which can move metal. People would just like have looked at you and would have said this person is talk so and. As soon as you could start to show, hey, there is magnetism, there is fields, they are existing, they became reality, they became a very normal reality. And no one is questioning them anymore. And some of this, I would say, is my purpose to regarding in regards of vertical development, that there is this this vertical development is constantly happening. It does not stop when we are 18 and we get out of school.

kai: [00:45:27.84] It goes on all over your life. And we have very, very differently developed people and to treat them all the same and very often, especially also in management, we treat them exactly the same. We all assume that they are the same kind of people and they should do this work. And if not, then either they go or they get fired or just does not work. I mean this we also realize after some approaches do not work. But I'm really, really convinced if we can measure this better, if we can be more precise in that we can put on the better measures in the end to deal with the situation. And we have more happy people, we have less turnover rates and so on. We have more effective and happy teams. And this is only the business side. I mean, if you then I made the example of, of East Europe and also if you look to the US, I mean the polarity is as high as it has never been in the society. And I think this, if this becomes a visible truth that the developmental levels, then I guess we have I mean I made a joke that we have world peace. This is clearly not true. We will not have world peace, but we have a much more differentiated view on the reality. And I think this will decrease the pain experience at the moment, especially a lot.

Martin: [00:46:58.39] Making this truth visible and enabling people to be able to respond based on different people's and one's own personal development stage. What are the villains to making that a reality? What are the things that are constraining that truth?

kai: [00:47:19.29] And it's a very good question. And I mean, I had a lot of conversations in the last month with different people, also a lot of integral people. And the sense is a bit that the integral scene is a very cognitive scene, that there is a lot of thinking about this model and this theory and what exactly is integral. I mean, we have an integral party here in our town, and they still are. We went once in one of their meetings because we have to connect, but they are still discussing in their meetings what is the term integral, what does it really mean? And sorry, this is not the point that the theory is one part, but you have to digest it as quick as possible and then you have to live it. There are four clear modules. There is a clear practice, just not having it as a concept but as something to apply. This is a bit lost in the integral scene, I would say at the moment, and especially in regards of shadow. I mean, that's what we realised over the last ten years. Shadow is the most annoying and painful part, but hardly people practice it. And I mean, I want to mention one book here. It's from Robert Keegan. Robert Keegan is a very famous guy and he wrote the book How to Apply Immunity to Change. This is Applied Shadow in business. The term immunity is actually another term for shadow because it just shows the immunity of a team or a business to change. And there is unconscious parts to this. I think two things more I think which are really villains. This I brought in the colors before I would say that this is a bit problem with the vertical development it easily gets the taste of higher is better. It's a tricky situation somehow because there is clearly more developed people and less developed people, but this does not make one or the other better.

janet: [00:49:17.55] You mentioned this concept of immunity from change. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because when we look at agility in organisations to be agile, whether it's capital or small, there is a change element in that. So I'm really curious, what is this immunity all about and how does it show up?

kai: [00:49:41.42] Well, I'm not too familiar to the actual application of immunity, because I would just take my take on it. The book itself is Immunity to Change from Robert Kagan. He is a business professor from the MIT, and he just realized that there is some unconscious stuff running also in business which hinders change. And as I said, I'm not too familiar with the actual practice, but just taking my own example from the EPA. If we had a system there or a structure which would just allow us to go deeper into just to accept that there is unconscious parts, only then we could start a discussion about this. Then we could ask, Kai, why are you coming late every second day? What is it really? Because I mean, all we see is there is a guy who is not really taking it serious, but is he not taking it serious? Does he think it's stupid? This these are questions which are never asked. It's just like a bad look and a frank in the box and on we go. And I think this to just allow this and I think there is in the movement, it starts a bit with this that you bring your wholeness into the company, including your emotions, including fear, anger, whatever and we work with. That is a step into this direction I guess. But still then and that would be also a bit of a villain from the whole scene, I think. One thing is to talk about it. It's easy. Yeah, we've come now whole to the company. We bring all our emotions. But actually, does it really happen? Like, do we do we walk our talk? I think that's often then also the problem because we can be as shiny and as agile or teal or holographic as we want. If this is just an external structure which we don't really live, then we have again to dive into the unconscious and really figure out what is the immunity in the system.

janet: [00:51:50.18] It's about these frameworks I'm sensing, and maybe you can clarify the frameworks that you've just mentioned, agile and ocracy, and is there actually space in the framework to hold space for people, or is the framework really focused on holding the space for itself? And how does that impact agility?

kai: [00:52:14.96] What comes up immediately if the framework is only giving you ideas, only is a map. And even if you take Agile, it only gives you an idea and it gives you Oslo clear a clear structure with Scrum. But the people, I think that the people are outside of this somehow you cannot put them into a into a map. I mean, a map can help you to say, hey, a person is here or there and so on. But but the real person they have to work with, you have to you have to see the real person and also the person itself, I think. Needs to be wanted to be seen. I mean, some people are happy if they can just sit in their Kevlar and dive into the tunnel. But that's difficult to answer, as you see for me, because I would say once you integrate certain techniques like shadow work. Yes, it is. It's called deal. Deliberately developmental organizations. Actually, it's also a term which comes from Keegan. So for all the curious listeners, I think that's the way to go. And I can give you an example because I would say Integral Works. Our company here is typical DOE and the idea of DOE is no more about this is our product. We do everything that this product goes forward, but like, hey, the people here, they have interest.

kai: [00:53:46.13] They want to go in a direction. They have a purpose, as you asked before, Janet, and now do something with it. We create the room for this and you fill the room with the way you want. And within this we also have clearly implemented structures of shadow work. I mean, if you go in a meeting and the tension level or the mood is like very high or low, then we go in here now and we check, Hey, what's up? Why are we meeting? Is there a meeting needed or not? So you have a very I would call this a very, very agile situation because in each moment you check and you also check. Do I want to do the work right now or I mean, at home there is my wife and boy can cannot actually sit here and do it or do I have to do it and so on and so on. And also bringing this back into the organization, this me, this person, I think this is typical parts of deal and way more important than the structures and everything else. Still, the structures give you a good security of frame and a whole. This is no question. But but in the video and also what I enjoy a lot here is the person is centered, right?

janet: [00:54:56.68] Those who have not found development purpose define the state. What is at stake here for your clients and for the industry to not take action?

kai: [00:55:08.36] To be honest, it's a big question. It's not about only some businesses who did not, but from my perspective, who did not yet understood it. I think the way we live is at stake. I mean, we have a slow moving system. We have, as I said before, we have in Europe, we are forbidding carbon based cars within the next ten years. But it's all slowly moving. And even in North America, I think you heard about the big scandals around Volkswagen and all the other car makers like three or four years ago. And this is at stake. I mean, there is companies which have no morality. There is if you go further back ten, 20 years, we had people that invited a machine which is shredding little chicken when they are male. And this is a typical system. Who in this world can invent such a machine? Did you ever see a little yellow baby chicken? Who can imagine a machine which is shredding chicken just because it's more efficient? This is at stake. On the whole scale, I think.

janet: [00:56:17.26] You're bringing this up like the level of consciousness in those machines. Who designed those machines? Where are they at and how does the rest of the works here?

Martin: [00:56:28.75] I think you're raising issues about cultures that get created and mindsets that get built that end up with us as a as a group, not making the best decisions for the overall world. And sort of you see it frequently in smaller settings. Like we, you know, there's certain things you can say in an organization. There's certain things you can't say there. There's certain ways you can challenge some in ways you can't challenge. So taking the example down a level in terms of emotional intensity. Can you talk a little bit about the the cultures and how that happens and what integral has to say or vertical development has to say about those type of challenges?

kai: [00:57:18.18] Look at the three of us. I mean, we are in a fairly good position, I think, because we just like kind of we have a purpose. Somehow we choose the job we want. I sense it in all of us. I think a lot of people are not in this situation or this is a question, although a bit of guilt to be in a situation like us where they have to decide completely on themselves. And I think here is the the power of of each individual alter somehow like what we do. Do I do the right thing on my personal purpose? And basically, I think if you look at the job market at the moment, it's good moment to change jobs. Like experts are needed everywhere and. This is, I think, part of the power you have. I once lived in a flat and the company who was running the flat state, they just cheated us and I had to move out. I could. We talked about everything was unclear up and so on. But from my emotional part, I could not live there anymore. When I came back home, I was always getting a bit angry about the whole situation.

kai: [00:58:25.09] So alternatively, I had to change. And I think this is one of the powers everybody has somehow. I think we need to check, Hey, am I on the right spot? And if not, then change. And if so? But it is not as it should be. Then. Fight. I'm not Donald Trump right now. I'm not asking to. To fight. But stand up for what? What you see I mean, I see it with my wife, where she's working the spot. She cares for the spot. It's important for her because it's a nice also a nice structure they create created there. And because she cares, she stands up. She speaks up and it takes her a lot of I mean, it scares her as well to speak up, to show up and say, hey, this is not cool. We have to make this different or at least allow the discussion. And I think, as Janet said, like people like the engineer from Google, we have to speak up. And I'm pretty sure then a lot of things do not happen.

Martin: [00:59:21.64] To close this conversation. You're talking to a group of stakeholders wanting to move their organization forward. And honestly, they feel stuck. You understand the difficult position you emphasize? What's going on? What would be your call to action to that?

kai: [00:59:39.25] Clearly not each company is the same. So first of all, this is what we do with our so called leadership alignment analysis. I think that comes closest to it. And I think a lot of people in companies can do that for you. So we check, hey, where is the leadership, where is the team and how aligned is all of this? And this in our situation, not only is like sitting together and talk, we also bring in all this vertical development into place. We can then see, hey, look, a marketing team very often is a bit even better. I.t team interestingly is is more developed on a conscious level than other teams because they embrace agility already some years ago, I mean it got invented in it because the structure feels stuck. And I think that that's what I would start with, like bring in an idea of business culture and this has to come from the top, but then also like start a discussion in the teams about business culture. And see if there's actually interest in your team's about this. Or maybe some people just want to have a fixed job and make the money and go home and take care of their family. Then business culture is not so important sometimes. But start the discussion there and also analyze where where is your teams? I'm also from my I.T. background. I'm a big fan of monitoring.

kai: [01:01:14.94] I mean, it sounds boring or maybe also dangerous on people, but not monitoring itself. But like get an idea of the cultural and the emotional situation of your company and of your teams. And this can be simple tools like we implemented once we have a time tracking system and we have like two buttons to stop a task one button with a smiley up and one button with a smiley down. And if you work on a task and you're done after an hour and you press the smiley button down, it goes in the system, first of all. But then you can take this information and extract like how many percent? And it's anonymous. It's not like it's known that chi pressed a smiley down button. And if you always have on the same kind of work, team or job the smiley down as a majority, then this is a good way to start asking in this in this team, hey, what is the problem with this customer or with this meeting or whatever the smiley down button you get? But this is a simple outcome. Only after the discussion which was already led do we want such a thing? Do we want a smiley down button? I think it starts there. I think it starts in this. Do we want to live a more conscious culture or do we want to go on?

janet: [01:02:30.69] You've spoken to us about the four elements of your theory shadow, the mind, body and spirituality. And I just wanted to bring the word integration into the circle as well, because you had brought that forward at the outset. So what is your hope for the future? Does it relate to these five elements or is there something else? And how do you see the threats and opportunities we are facing today about our future?

kai: [01:03:01.68] Well, if I observe myself. I see that this question like goes up and down in in my developmental personality types and one is saying, hey, it's just it bothers you less part. It's maybe the very, very high one, which is also not very personal any more, which says it is the universe and it is unfolding. And it is unfolding in a way it is. And we can we can play our roles in it, help unfolding it. But that's that's all we can do. And I even like other parts of me right now, start to feel sad. Because this perspective is not very cool. I mean, it makes you helpless somehow. If I go further down. My hope is that I described it before. Like fights of conscious levels always tend into a certain struggle to end in a certain struggle, like I think we see right now in Europe. And we also nearly saw in January in the US. And I think it has unfortunately, I think it has to go through a certain intensity of energy. Let's put it like this. But my hope is that out of this. We realize the next step of consciousness has to unfold in a global way. To bring this forward, to have it not happen anymore. Or it might even happen because the integral framework or the developmental map says that we have to go through all stages.

kai: [01:04:36.47] And I mentioned this somewhere that to bring it back to business, I think all the businesses develop through certain stages. On our website, we have nice maps for the personnel but also for the organizations for development. And it is clear a company which is ended or which which has come to the end of typical project management usually is switching to an agile system. And this is normal, this is needed, and this is clear if the team and the company is ready. So it has to go through this way. Right. And the same from a world view. The whole world has to go through this way and my little boy has to learn to express his anger. He also has to learn to hold his anger. And this this happens. And it will happen again and again. Again. And this is the truth of development in the end. And we cannot skip anything. But my hope is that we get this a bit more into a less violent I mean. Anger will always be a part of human mankind. But violence, I think, in that sense, is not really needed. That's my hope.

janet: [01:05:50.75] So as people we are in organizations and in the end, Agile is a place where people have vested interest. Can you offer three things that people can consider? What are the top three things that you would offer people as something to take away?

kai: [01:06:12.69] Since we have this as a working title, I guess we like getting an idea of vertical development. I think this is really if you're not ready for this because it's also like it can be that you're just not interested or whatever is the expression of you're not ready for it then so what? But if you're ready for it, it will change something in you. It will change the way you see the world. And then out of this, in the best case comes action. I think the second is Wilbur's second module, Shadow, looking just at myself and all the others around me. When you are a normal employee, you come to work and you have all your little issues with you. And some are bigger issues. Some are little issues, but a lot of them in the end make you suffer sometimes. Also, if you're in a big position, sometimes all of your employees. But this unconscious part's actually not. I think taking care of them is needed to ultimately, I think a certain clean up in society is really helpful. And if it's only the understanding of what is a protection.

kai: [01:07:19.58] And it might be that I'm projecting right now something on the other. That would be my second. Best guess. And the third one is, is anger. I think we live in a society and especially business told us for years ages that we are not allowed to express emotions, basically, and especially anger. And this still happens. I mean, if you really look like you just express it under the hood, it's still there. It comes through irony, through sarcasm, through bitchy comments, whatever. This this emotion is still there. And I think if it is handled differently, it has a huge potential to develop can really like because behind anger if you understand this cognitively behind anger is always in need and need for a better system and need for a nicer work environment and so on. But it has to go through the awareness that it makes me angry. Things do not work like I want makes me angry because I want them to work different. There's a need. That is actually behind it. So I think that would be my third.

Martin: [01:08:30.45] What I take from this conversation is this whole concept of vertical development and moving between roles and that each conscious level is is valid in itself. It's fully respected and it's not better than the other one. I think this podcast is predicated on the concept that our ability to implement Agile in a place isn't always a green place. Sometimes we get it, get it there, but it's more of an orange type structure that we put Agile into. And I think this podcast is about sort of looking at ways that we can take Agile and implement it as green and maybe even take it up a level to a higher level of consciousness around the tale. And so it's been a big lesson for me in listening to this podcast around really questioning whether that should be our aim and whether that ambition to move systems forward in terms of consciousness is actually a valid endeavour. Can you maybe just quickly talk to that and then ask Janet to wrap up? I mean.

kai: [01:09:41.73] Further up, if you want to say so. There are techniques. I mean, I think the highest applied technique at the moment is is a deal and it's a completely different way of working. But I think regarding agile or agility. As I said before, it has a very important part in the whole let's call it a pipeline. Let's call it a pipeline up to a deal. And not every kind of business can be a deal, just that this is also clear. It's like it's very. Yeah, not even especially a creative job, but to have a pipeline in between. The Agile part has a very, very important step. And I think to to realize. How do we like a conveyor belt? How do we pick people who are fed up with classical project management? How do we then sit them? Easily and also ask their needs into agile system. I think that then have really a profound agile system and maybe this is just the end of the journey for a lot of teams and companies, and if it's at the right moment, it's perfect. But being really like clear about this I think would be the best. Agilent Also podcasts can deliver in the beginning. And then what comes then? I don't know. But. I think this is like this is the quality somehow. Right? I would rather take care of of the quality and core competence.

janet: [01:11:22.37] So on today's podcast, Kai is from Switzerland. You have joined us today to bring us into integral theory and the key tenants as to why and how in using vertical development, in focusing on levels of consciousness that can extend our worldview and in that work, organize our own personal development, focus on things that are likely in our universe, like anger in our workplaces. We bring who we are and we have had a journey in this podcast. Is your various stories, personal stories, organizational stories, examples of thinking of development as we were babies and who we are today. We're going past various stages in our lives. I thank you for bringing this to our attention today and all the questions and challenges that it raises with us. And so we are looking forward to hearing from our listeners to see what they might want to hear about next in this journey of the application of internal theory in the world of agile capital and small moving forward. Thank you for being with us. And thank you, Martin, as always.

kai: [01:12:43.34] Thank you as well, especially also for the room you created, both of you, and also for the nice setup.