Kerry Woodcook's Agility Narrative on relational systems

We are really pleased to welcome Kerry Woodcock to the Agility narratives to talk about her personal journey as an advocate of change and the challenges she sees for organizations in being responsive to opportunity and change.

Kerry leads by holding and challenging leaders, organizations and social systems to amplify the power of relationship

Weaving together innovations from change leadership, adult development and systems coaching, she coaches leaders and teams to develop collective leadership capacity. 

Kerry is a great story teller - how curiosity, connectedness and separation was a core experience growing up in a market town in Northern part of UK. How it was built upon living in a village in the Eastern Arc mountains, Tanzania  for four years in forestry reservation.  

How change makers are people embracing introspection, and reflection. How she feels the villains are the things that get in the way of introspection and reflection and awareness...

I found the talk challenging, thoughtful with deep gut level concepts like a time for pause, space in between, fascination, curiosity, connectiveness, being separate, introspection and reflection, relational systems... ".  Enjoy!

0:00 - Welcome to The Agility Narratives Podcast and first question
1:42 - Kerry's personal story - early reflections on influences that developed her curiousity
4:09 - Being a lightsprite! Being fascinated by ourselves and the space in between. That is where the possibilities come from.
5:33 - Living in one village in the Eastern Arc mountains, Tanzania for four and a half years (Forest Reservation)
8:19 - Being alone, separate and connected - Travels between Tanzania, UK and then to Canada and coaching
11:23 - Exploring and finding the right match for coaching approach "the space in between"
12:38 - Context for the Agility Narratives on Social intelligence and the third relationship systems intelligence - this is about tapping into what is trying to happen
14:15 - Tools to make the invisible visible and developing those skills within leaders
15:29 - The Agility Narratives - the protoganist is The HR & OD leader / change maker
18:23 - The relational dynamics of conflict with people coming from different positions and responding to change
20:20 - Change leaders are those that are willing to look inside themselves, their systems and teams... and are working with others in the organization
21:55 - The Agility Narrative Theme - The dance of Separate and connected at the same time AND being introspective and reflective at the same time
22:55 - The dance - your impact as a leader. - systems depend on people playing internal & external roles and understanding their power
24:55 - Role confusion - Competitive roles .v. collaborative roles
25:14 - Experience with environments that have different levels of separateness and connectiveness
27:20 - The villains are the things that get in the way of introspection, reflection and awareness of yourself and the systems
28:23 - Fear and exploring the low dream
30:00 - What is the antidote to fear? Stepping into purpose and meaning
31:18 - If clients can't get past fear, what is at stake for clients and the industry?
33:11 - role of ecosystems in moving towards a stronger relational systems approach?
35:01 - Advice to leaders who feel stuck - Starting with their fears - allowing them to get curious about them
37:09 - The call to action is to do the introspective and reflective work
38:46 - A time for pause - From the pandemic, people are considering how do they want to connect with the world, social justice and climate...
40:40 - Introspective - can't just stay with us as individuals but needs to expand to us as a collective
42:12 - Thank you Kerry for getting to think about some themes of the conversation - pause, fascination, curiosity, relational systems and ecosystems.

Transcript

martin: [00:00:01]
 Welcome to the Agility Narratives Podcast series. Let me introduce Janet, my co-host today, and then Kerry would be our guest. Hi, Janet. Thanks for co-hosting this podcast with me. Please can you introduce yourself?

janet: [00:00:14] 
Good morning, Martin and Kari. I'm the founder of Taproot Systems, a fellow CPA who is a certified integrated professional coach and also a climate change coach. I use relational systems, approaches and granted in indigenous ways in my work and I recently retired from the Executive Committee of the Federal Public Service in Canada.

martin: [00:00:34] 
We're very pleased to welcome Keri to the agility narratives, to talk about her personal journey as an advocate of change, the challenges she sees, and how Carrie and her training helps organization address them. We hold the space as a community so we can listen to leading change makers and enterprise agile leaders talk about their agility narratives. Each narrative we hypothesize gives us insight into part of the whole. Carrie leads a world of change by holding and challenging leaders, organizations and social systems to amplify their power of relationship. Weaving together innovations from change, leadership, adult development and systems coaching she coaches, leaders, and their teams develop collective leadership capacity by kerry, welcome.

kerry: [00:01:19
] Hi, Martin. Hi, Janet. Very, very happy to be here and be in this conversation with you both.

martin: [00:01:27] 
We're really looking forward to it. Today, you help leaders face complex organizational challenges. You inspire organizations to adopt cultures of curiosity, conflict, resilience and shared leadership. Where did your journey begin?

kerry: [00:01:42] 
Well, it began in a.Small Market town, a market town in the northwest of England, where for hundreds, maybe thousands, I don't know, had a market.Where People came from Around to.Sell their ways and meet and have conversations together. My father was a schoolteacher in a boarding school on the outskirts of the town.And from That place I got to hang out with, be around many people from different places around the World But it would be in a boarding school. And it was a really unique place, I believe, because half the school were students who had been taken out of the usual education system because they had some difficulties. Through Life, and they went to that school to sort of find that support. And then half of people From All around the world, you know, Nigeria, Dubai, all sorts of different places, a real mix Of. People and a real community.

martin: [00:02:52]
 How did that influence your work that you chose?

kerry: [00:02:55] 
I didn't realize, actually, until recently, probably in the last three or four years how much that experience impacted me. It brought that curiosity to differences, I suppose, as well as the similarities in that sort of community space. I didn't go to that school, but I finished school. I'd walk there and go straight there before I'd go home to hang out there. So I think that curiosity about the World And about how people. Can interact together and create amazing Atmospheres for wonderful growth Of both individuals. These students have been a house. There was often issues and the police showing up at their door because something was happening with the student at the school and students would be at the dinner dining room table with my family and just seeing those students come back later and to visit my dad even when he wasn't a teacher at that school anymore. Our family, my dad died about six years ago and we're still connected to some of those students as a family.

janet: [00:04:08]
 So, Kerry, you've been described as a ringleader, a story weaver and a light sprite. Whereabouts did these come about in your late teens and what stage of your personal journey career did they pop up?

kerry: [00:04:24]
 I think the Light Sprite came about in my initial coach training, and I don't think I recognized it at the time, but I think it's probably just comes from my essence Of The energy, of the same lightness that I bring. Like I like To Think about how we are as human beings and actually see the humor in the darkness as Well And not take ourselves so seriously, especially in the hiccups and the mess ups and The difficult places in conflict. It's like if we can just take a step back and have a look, oh, aren't we interesting, fascinating, funny little beings, so to speak. It sounds a bit patronizing and a bit too blasé. So there's a downside to that part of me But yeah I do hold That If we can be fascinated with ourselves as individuals, as we can be fascinated with the spaces in between, then that's where the possibility comes from. So I think the light sprite comes from the.

janet: [00:05:34] 
So we've heard today about your curiosity, possibly where that began and now fascination. And so diving into your work with relational systems and leadership. Can you explain what the possible were there triggers or was it basically the light side of life that brought you into this area?

kerry: [00:05:57] 
Ha. I think it was the initially the light side, the fascination side. I started my actual career work in Tanzania, East Africa, in Forestry, but it wasn't really the trees or the forests that were as exciting. Forestry environment was everywhere in the newspapers. I knew that that was an exciting, new, innovative place to go. So yes, looking at that light side, but it was again, the the observation Of the people And what was going on there. So when I was then in Tanzania, I had the great privilege of spending most of that time for four and a half years, living in one village in the eastern Arc mountains of Tanzania. I was out really outside of my culture, outside of my space. Again, I could play The observer role And yet at that stage of my life, it felt very much like, okay, there was the government reserving this forest and keeping the local people out. The outside world was like, Oh, why are people burning down the forests? There's always these baddies and goodies in the space. So again, like really wanting to see. Well. Is that true? Like, what is really here? What's happening in that space? I guess it's primarily on the outside from the light side. And maybe the trickiest side of anything Is This deep sense of on a personal Level Not always feeling like it can connect as much To people As they want To And this sort of frustration throughout my life, like, I feel very connected. And then, then this is a loneliness that I have in my own psychology and maybe, maybe the being the only child While For eight years had an impact in that space. So there's something there of wanting to be connected more fully and have other people be more fully connected as well. So maybe that's on The on theTrigger side.

janet: [00:08:20]
 It's wonderful to hear that the start of this personal journey was in a local village in the forest. Maybe you can just talk a little bit about what you've just shared with us in the context of how you came back to Canada.

kerry: [00:08:36]
 Let's say there's something that's just coming up from with me, from my last piece about loneliness and being separate. But also being connected in a community. I think it helped me very much. Even going from my where I was from In U.k., my family went from there, but it was also separate or on the boundaries. I was in the village and very much cared for, accepted, taken care of in the village With the People that I was living with. And yet I was very separate. Learning the language, not understanding. What was going on. All the beliefs were very different to beliefs that I had grown up With That work. I met my husband in Tanzania. He's British. I met him there. Completely different talk about separate. An engineer in oil and gas. I'm working there in the environmental field and conservation. But again attracted to the different and a little bit strange. But anyway, I met him. Life goes on because we go back to the UK. I finished my PhD and doing a PhD based on I was working for a local NGO in Tanzania for Years and.

kerry: [00:09:57] 
We decided that we wanted to be out of it. We had two young children at that time later to have three, and I decided to go and and live elsewhere and it was either China or Canada. And I wanted China and my husband wanted Canada. He's a snowboarder, so He really Wanted to it in the mountains. So we headed to Halifax with his work and then St John's and then we went back to Tanzania with my work and then finally over to Calgary And from Calgary I was going backwards and forwards doing consultancy work in Tanzania. The kids were the two girls were Really Young and after a while it was like I was being torn up, separate and connected. He was coming up again, torn between two worlds and realizing that again it was the people side of things and how people could collaborate together, understand each other better. That was where the work lay. And so when I first moved to Calgary, I'd been reading a lot about the positive psychology work of Marty Seligman and that had mentioned coaching. And I have to say it was a bit lost at that particular Time and Feeling a bit torn between where I want to be in Tanzania still. But here we are in Canada. I don't know where I want to be anymore, or like this sort of peace. And I thought I'd explore. Well, actually my husband said, You keep talking about this coaching thing, like, why don't you have a look at that? So three weeks into being in Calgary, I took the co active coach training in Calgary And While I liked it I developed the skills that as a coach, the powerful questions and the listening better. I was like, okay, and I get this. I've been an athlete before, so there's the values and the purpose and all of that peace that I'd felt on a personal level. So I started my coaching practice from there. Yet it was Still There's still a piece missing. It was the space, you know, rather than just working with the individuals. It's a space in between that I was missing. And that's where Osc Sierra Global's organization and relationship systems coaching came into play because that was connected in that coaching world. And once I took that training, I was like, okay, this is going back to my roots. It's about the space in between, about the magic that can happen, about seeing the collective as an entity of in itself and actually having the system tap into that.

martin: [00:12:37] 
So let's start talking about your agility narrative. You just started the conversation about how you reached relational systems and training based on a very diverse set of different experiences across your life. Can you set up the context around relational systems and leadership and how you took that forward once you've done that initial coaching with.

kerry: [00:13:05]
 Organizational relationships, systems coaching Sort of Brought to me was again sort of moving Past sort Of just the emotional intelligence piece. So not moving past including it but moving from that to what the social intelligence, what might be going on with the Other to The third relationship systems intelligence, what's trying to happen, what's trying to emerge in this within this system, whether a system is I mean, a system an individual is a system as well. So it can be used for that. But whether it's a system of a pair or a partnership or a team or a team of teams or an organization, it's a sort of tapping in and listening To What's trying to happen. For instance, even if, as we notice, something's showing up in us being able to bring that out instead of thinking, Oh, this is just about Me, but Bring it out. Make that invisible and visible and check in. Where else is this perhaps showing up? What has this information got for us and being able as a leader? So whether that initially I went into this, you know, primarily as a coach to support the work with teams in particular, that's what I like working with, especially so having as the coach, having the tools to be able to make the invisible visible, but then actually developing those skills within the leader. So I ended up working with teams being in Calgary primarily in oil and gas in the energy sector initially, and then moving more to municipal government amongst many other industry industries. And what happens again and again, first of all, we brought in with the coaching and then the leaders start to say not all of them, but some of them start to say, wow, okay, I want to show Up more Like this. I want to be More. Systems inspired, more coach, like with my teams. How can I like any tips? How can I bring this into my team? So of course they're learning through it, being models and works within their own teams, but then they start to take that out and then want to be trained in these skills themselves.

janet: [00:15:30] 
So diving into leadership, given your work in weaving together innovations for the world of change, change, leadership, also neuro leadership, you mentioned IQ. You mentioned emotional intelligence and systemic team coaching. In your vision, in your passion, who is that main character or characteristic? Here's the feature of your narrative. That protagonist, the one who will win out, is very curious.

kerry: [00:16:07]
 Of course, it's shifted and changed over the years from sometimes I love just seeing who shows up. Those that have been showing up or have been founders of coaching and consulting organizations, the h.r. And od leaders of the world. And i have to admit, i'll just say this. I'll admit that at first I was like, oh, no Like I'm beginning to say But, oh No, why are they coming? I wanted to work with the leaders, the CEOs and the people at that sort of levels. And of course, founders are CEOs themselves in these other organizations. Like why is it that the coaches and the consultants that come in rather than the direct leaders? And then I was like, don't lay out the they are the leaders as well. And so really what I'm loving about that these are the leaders, the leaders, the leaders that are coming who are actually noticing that within themselves in their own organizations, that there's some disruption, there's some disappointment. Here we Are If you think about those organized coach and consultant organizations, if you think about HR and OD Here we Are actually developing the change leaders of this world. And yet where are we and how are we interacting with each other? And there's some some messiness in here. And are we walking our own? Org.So. They are the people who like really as the introspection, space and reflection space that are vulnerable enough to say, hey, we need some support, we want to do this work or this is really uncomfortable. Oh, this is what our clients Are Also feeling. And hey, and then it's a great privilege after I've been gone. Oh, why are they coming? Great privilege to be asked, to be able to support in that space Because, yeah,how Can we support the change leaders, the well, the world workers of the world if we're not actually doing our own work?

janet: [00:18:23]
 You mentioned disruption, nature and odd leaders. Do you have a sense of what the issues with the things have been in disruption? Can you share those with us?

kerry: [00:18:36] 
What I'd say is from an internal perspective, it's the same old, same old. The relational dynamics of conflict in the sense of people coming from different positions. So the same old, same old. And like there's some people want more structure, some people want more flexibility within the organization, the competition and collaboration, all of these polarities. So at the basic level is the same old, same old. I would say it's also the pieces of as organizations grow, it's different at different stages of A Organization's life. We started off as the family, and now We're Like the community Like, how Do we shift and change? Like, how do We Let go and grieve sort of the losses of the beautiful things that that we had but now need to shift and change as we're in a different space. And then, of course, you know, with the pandemic and the changes and the system, there's extra extra pressure on the system. And, hey, are we willing to change? Are we willing to Shift how.

kerry: [00:19:59]
 The organizations, the bigger scale is needing to shift and work in a different way? And are we how are we collectively leading together? So it's all of those. I'll just say basics that just show up again and again and again.

martin: [00:20:20]
 You talk about conflict and relational relations, and when you identify your protagonists of those, the change makers in the organization that you see as the protagonists.

kerry: [00:20:36]
 I think Whether they are the change makers, the change leaders, they are the ones that are willing to Look Inside themselves. As an individual and inside their systems, whether it's even their specific team and itself. So that is to me a change leader. Because they're catching things pretty quickly sooner as well. They're noticing what's happening in the emotional field, the energy that's shifting and how people are interacting together. They're noticing discomfort within themselves. And I think they're getting curious about I don't know what it is, but there's something shifting here, something wanting to happen And they're While they might Be I think disappointment shows up a lot, disappointment in itself Or In their system that they might not be just able to work with this so nice and easy. Like we are working With Developing other people in the organization, yet we're here. So yes, they Are Change leaders from my perspective, even Though They are also the ones that are there to develop the change leaders in the organization as Well.

martin: [00:21:56] 
As they work to help with change. They're excited by the concept of change. They're excited by learning new aspects to how to facilitate that change. So what would you say would be the theme of agility narrative?

kerry: [00:22:11]
 The theme is separate and connected at the same time. There's a bigger theme about being able to be introspective and reflective. I don't know which one is the bigger one or the piece, but it really is. I think the presenting piece comes up as like how we're separate and connected and there's different levels of wanting to be separate and connected. And how do we do that at the same time in the organization as well or within our teams that we're not connected enough or we're not separate enough or we're not putting boundaries, there's too many boundaries. Or That's the dance that I see showing up again and again.

martin: [00:22:56] 
How does that dance turn out?

kerry: [00:22:58] 
Dance. The ability to be able To Notice our impact. Whether it's on the individual level or as a system, but more specifically from that power place as well. Power from an influence standpoint, if you think about a team, those roles are required, whether that's the outer roles and this is like some of the OSC, but also one of the principles are that, you know, systems rely on roles for their execution and function. And we're not just talking about the outer roles, the title roles, we're talking about inner roles as well. Who's even who, but how is nurturing supported? How is like connecting supported? How is like being boundary who and how are those Roles Supported within the system? And there's power, rank and privilege In Each or any of those roles. And there's so much, many role issues that show Up the role Nausea that comes along with having to say you're always playing the the devil's advocate role and then challenging the system as a change leader. And you might be doing it really well. You could be holding that role in a skillful way, but you could also be in and I've done this plenty of times in systems and not always holding it in a skillful way as well. So noticing where is the role more clear? Where we tie away like the one part of the system that's having to hold that rather than holding it collectively, whereas poorly occupied roles. And is it been unskillful or has it been held skillfully? Where are the roles completely missing? Quite often, if you think about these especially coach consultant teams where collaboration is like a huge piece and yet there might be a lack Of Being able to be in that competitive role as well, because no, we've got to all be collaborative or we've all got to listen in to the emotions and hear, and then there's not the other side as well. But I think that's some of the behaviors that show up in in just even in one area, in the role confusion space.

janet: [00:25:14]
 Dominant narrative that's out there in relational systems thinking is the terms of separation and interrelatedness. And I couldn't help thinking of this narrative, listening to you when you talk about the separation and connectedness in your work, then you've been in this field for a while. Have you seen an increasing sense of separation rather than interrelatedness and connectedness? Or have you seen kind of a balance? Or are things remaining the same?

kerry: [00:25:48] 
So from my perspective, in the areas that I'm aware that I'm working with, you know, dependent upon industry. So previously spending more time in oil and gas, we might see more of the separate sort of piece and moving towards the more connectedness place or like side to side to the leap as the early adopters started to take more of that on. And then if you think if I'm working now more in the space with the coaches and the consultants and the odd side of air, then that really sort of has those pendulum swings over into that collaborative collective interrelatedness space. And then I don't know about you, but I do a lot of pendulum swings. Once I have something, I'm like, Oh, I'm all the way over there now and I've forgotten the other side and forget to integrate that in. So I feel like in that area it's More the Interrelatedness and then forgetting about the upside of the separateness. So it's like just swinging too far the other way. And yeah, as with all of us trying to find the balance at any different moment and the distinction Or the Discernment to be able to go what's needed in this moment and this particular situation. Is it more separate rather than connected? So yeah, that's the merry little Dance that I See. 

janet: [00:27:21] 
In your agility narrative that has a lot of dancing moments. Who or what are your villains?

kerry: [00:27:29]
 I feel I mentioned the word introspection and I'm always introspection, reflection I feel Like the villains Are The things that get in the way of introspection and reflection and awareness and being able to be. If you can't see yourselves or your system. Again, another aspect revealing the system to itself. That's our main role as systems inspired leaders or or coaches in this field. So being able to reveal the system to itself, able to for it to see itself. So once we can see itself, it can shift from that or choose to or not.And so The villains are the things that get in the way of That And I guess I'm the one I feel like it's like fear. Fear of seeing ourselves if you just even think about the individual and no even hearing our voice already now thinking, Oh, no, listening back to this and here are my own voice, and well, what do I see of myself in this conversation? There's just a deep sense of fear, of ReallyStopping, pausing, taking a time to see what's really going on. Well, while we might be fascinated Oh Now we see something, and we have to do something with that, and that can Be Take energy or that's what shows up for me. And I think what shows up for others sometimes is they're going to see something really so deep and dark and horrible. They're never going to be able to get out of it. And then everyone's going to go down into the slump. You often hear that with leaders. You know, we talk about exploring what's the high dream or the best hopes and exploring the low dream and you'll get some. It's Oh, we don't want to go down into the low dream. The worst fears, because if you start talking about that, everyone's going to end up down that no, no, you get to do both, right? You get to explore both and make the invisible visible. It's not going to make You Because it's already there in the background. So there's often a fea rOf Self exploring those sort of darker spaces for fear that everyone's going to get stuck. The so I think fear. And then there's the good old excuses of, well, we don't have.Time to do This. What's this going to mean? Yeah. All of those things that get in the way.

janet: [00:30:00]
 Now, what I'm hearing is this world of being closed a close fine. But let fear comes from really, in my experience, a closed heart. And so what is the antidote to be able to move beyond that in your experience and with the training?

kerry: [00:30:18] 
Close heart or close head? Close heart, closed gut. Yeah, I think the antidote is to really step into purpose and meaning Rather than fearing The consequences Of Maybe upsetting some People.You know, not always being liked, not not doing things in the right way or it not being, you know, having to be perfect Or Hey, just not having what it takes referring there. But I think the more that we Can Connect to not just that individual purpose, but a collective purpose. So sort of the more that we can connect to that and what's meaningful and what's the belief that we're coming from Then the More that we can have courage to to go forward, even with the Fear.

martin: [00:31:18]
 So if leaders and change makers aren't able to get past their fear to to find collective purpose and meaning, what's at stake, what's at stake for them and the industry?

kerry: [00:31:33] 
I think what's at stake is. This is just just put it out there. Disease. Within self. We see this and in our world right now and In our Organizations, whether that's people literally like having physical, emotional, mental illnesses and then even going to the syndrome of burnout, that lack of enthusiasm, lack of efficacy and lack of energy for the work it comes, it's coming back to disappointment. For me, that's the Thing that Shows up. But that's it's disease and not being able to. Not been able to find the resources to be able to move forward when these other The World, the system, the environment, we're not if we're not resourced because even the environment of our workplaces impacting us, while we might Still Move forward to some degree, it's the lack of potential and possibility to what humankind can actually create together.

martin: [00:32:50] 
So it seems such a loss in terms of the space between people that could be connectedness, could be positive energy, could be creativity for dysfunction, this disease and seems very disappointing exactly what the word you use. Very disappointing.

janet: [00:33:11] 
I'm just curious, in your experience, what does the role of connection with ecosystem play in moving towards a stronger relational systems approach? Well, I.

kerry: [00:33:26] 
Think that's the thing. We as human beings, we might forget that we're part of this natural world. So again, if we can connect to ourself, if we can connect to each other, we can connect to the rest of the ecosystem and the rest of the planet that we're living on and beyond. Like, can we even get to beyond, right? If we can't even start here with self If We can't even connect with humankind, the more that we're working with the self The More that we can connect to each other, the more that we can Connect To ecosystems and other beings as well, whether that be. The beings, the creatures or the the forest systems, the climate and everything else. It's all part of the same piece. Today, as I'm speaking, it's got to start somewhere. Now, does it have to start with self? That's where I'm sitting with today. It feels like it needs to start with self and yet maybe it doesn't. Everyone can connect in at different places and in fact different cultures, even some cultures don't connect so much yourself, but With other soul. I think there's possibility wherever we're connecting to other parts of the system as long as we can then take it up and down through the threads to the other places, then we'll be more More Whole and more able to work with this.

janet: [00:35:01] 
So, Kerry, to close this conversation, you're talking to a group of stakeholders, the change makers in an organization and who really feel the weight of constant change that we've collectively lived over the past two years. They're wanting to move their organization forward and honestly, they feel stuck. And you understand their difficult position and you empathize. So I'm curious what's going on? What are you most curious about in the situation and what would be your call to action to? The first place I'd.

kerry: [00:35:41]
 Get curious and I'd want them to get curious is the simple place of doing this thing with my hands, like holding these, both places may feel Stuck Like, what is that low dream like where they might actually feel? What are they talking about? Fears like what are their worst fears? Like really sort of being there with Where they are Allowing themselves to just be there. I would always be. In my earlier times. The change age of that I didn't want to spend any time there in the fears was trying to drag everyone over. Oh, but it looks good over here. There's this possibility and completely disowning Where people were So yeah, it would be to get really curious about that side of things and really because every time we do this. People after and then go to the best hopes or the dream, as we might call it, and ask. And really flesh that out and really get clear there. And then from there sort of check in, where are they? Which are they closest To the Low dream or the high dream in that moment? And what is it that's needed just to move even one step forward towards what do they need to design with each other to start to move forward? And so the call to action is really to sort of notice where they are to do that introspective, reflective work. And it's not just look collective can be like looking back but start to learn to be reflexive in the moment. Notice that in itself. Start to notice that in each other as it's happening. Speak to it. Shine a light on it. Make the invisible visible, not make it wrong. It's just is. And also look at the other side. Because if we have A Worst fear, we have a best hope as well. If we have a best hope, we have the worst fear and it's from there. Every time we do that sort of work, a system tends to go Oh! Okay I thought it was just me that Was Thinking that it was just our group that was thinking that we didn't realize that that was here or or if they didn't feel like, Oh, now we understand why you were behaving like X, Y and Z, we thought you were just being an ass, as we would say. But now we understand more. What can how can we start to shift that? How can we be together in that ?So yeah, a Call to action is really poor. Spend some time, be that, notice what's happening, bring it to the surface so that it can be worked with sooner rather than waiting until it. All get stuck in the mud beforehand. So the more that they practice that, the more that they'll be able to do that sooner as they move through change going forward.

martin: [00:38:46] 
Ah, you're an international person, you're currently in Spain with your son competing. You've come from the UK, Calgary and Tanzania. How do you see the threats and opportunities that we're facing as we face our future?

kerry: [00:39:04]
 See and i hear Through the pandemic. In fact, people are really reassessing what is important to them. And then coming back to that individual space, first of all, like who they want to work for, what sort of organization, what sort of space, how they want to be working Together, how They want to be connecting With The world. Where do they want to even how do their days want to be? And this Whole Reassessing. And if you think about the issues of social justice coming to the surface More.

kerry: [00:39:43] 
Climate. And then although this was all around the world being going on, not just Ukraine, but that is here in the collective. I feel like all of these pieces have created a. A time for pause for many people, whether that time of pause. It's what you do with the time of pause that really matters. That's going to make the difference. So I think for some people, this is that may not have been in that space of pausing, but it's created some of that that environment for that. So I have hope that as we come through The other Side, that there is more pause to be more purposeful.

martin: [00:40:41]
 I love the way you start with the person and you build it out into an integrated system that people can then be retrospective or introspective about. And you have this concept, these concepts of these high dreams and low dreams and living in both spaces and and in terms of where the world is going, in terms of threats, opportunity, it comes back to ourselves, our individuals and how we're reflecting on that and how we're being introspective about our role and what we want from the situations. And I guess are you saying that if each individual does that, there would be a huge impact in the world?

kerry: [00:41:25] 
I do believe that. Yeah, I do believe that. And doing it together, though, it can't just be done on our own. It needs to be Done Together. So we might do The What's matters to us. But what does matters to me but what matters to Us in And of course there's different OSes and so it does need To It can't just stay at the Individual Space but yeah we can develop the capacity to introspect, to reflect with ourselves and then together then I think there's Huge Possibility for us and for the rest of the ecosystems to.

janet: [00:42:11]
 Okay. I hear luminal spaces, that space in between separation and connectedness and self. We have much gratitude and appreciation for having you, Carrie, join us today on Agility Narratives. For the listeners, we're leaving with words like pause, fascination, curiosity systems, relational systems and ecosystems as well. Thank you for being with us this morning. And again, thank you, Martin, for providing the opportunity for me to be a co-host and looking forward that our listeners follow your journey, carry through Nevada Consulting and ask.

kerry: [00:43:04] 
Thank you for having me here and bringing some of the threads together and having me go inside and explore myself as well Thank you.

martin: [00:43:15] 
Thank you for this conversation. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you, Janet. Thank you, Terry.